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#1 joebozcfc

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 12:52 PM

Premier league chiefs are getting ready for a huge kick in the balls as the European Court of Justice expose their 'exclusivity deals' as illegal.

http://www.mirrorfoo...icle689289.html

UK broadcasters cannot prevent viewers using foreign satellite feeds to watch Premier League football matches, an adviser to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) has said.

In a move that could have major ramifications for the Premier League, Sky Sports and ESPN, ECJ advocate general Juliane Kokott has said a such a block is against European law.

Currently Premier League football is shown live in other countries on a Saturday afternoon, but that is banned in the UK to protect attendance figures.

To get around this, some viewers - especially pubs - use foreign feeds to screen matches.

But the authorities could soon be powerless to stop them if the European Court of Justice follows advice from Ms Kokott.

They are expected to make a ruling in the next few months, and typically follow the advice of the advocate general in the majority of cases.

Ms Kokott said: "The exclusivity agreement relating to transmission of football matches are contrary to European Union law.

"(The) exclusivity rights in question have the effect of partitioning the internal market into quite separate national markets, something which constitutes a serious impairment of the freedom to provide services."

The case is based on a dispute over whether a rights holder - such as the Premier League - can sell rights to football on a country-by-country basis.

The Premier League currently generates huge revenues by doing just that.




#2 Pagnell

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:01 PM

Even if they win I'd love to see how they plan to stop people watching a Premiership stream in the privacy of their own home.

#3 CAMRAlty

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:07 PM

This could be worrying. If United and/or City can have all their 3pm Saturday kickoffs shown in any pub, I fear Altrincham's average attendances would drop from circa 1,100 to more like 700. I'm sure it's the same with any smaller club. Top level games that can be viewed in the comfort of a pub or at home clashing with all others could have dire consequences.

#4 Son of Cod

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:09 PM

Even if they win I'd love to see how they plan to stop people watching a Premier League stream in the privacy of their own home.


Exactly. I imagine they'll start cutting off people's broadband after multiple warnings, similar to filesharing offenders.

I await the day somebody's broadband is cut off and they win it back through the courts by crying human rights, citing internet access as a commodity along with gas, electricity and water.

The article is a bit vague though, who is countering Mrs Kokott? Just Sky, or are they forming an alliance with ESPN and The Premier League? I don't stream matches online, but I hope they lose.

#5 GodsGift

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:11 PM

This could be worrying. If United and/or City can have all their 3pm Saturday kickoffs shown in any pub, I fear Altrincham's average attendances would drop from circa 1,100 to more like 700. I'm sure it's the same with any smaller club. Top level games that can be viewed in the comfort of a pub or at home clashing with all others could have dire consequences.


Yeh but that's been the case for a long time now, it's not like it's a new development. Seeing as I'm now at uni and can't get back to Lincoln to watch them play at home, I always use a stream to watch a game, be it a PL one or maybe from another top European league.

#6 Son of Cod

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:13 PM

This could be worrying. If United and/or City can have all their 3pm Saturday kickoffs shown in any pub, I fear Altrincham's average attendances would drop from circa 1,100 to more like 700. I'm sure it's the same with any smaller club. Top level games that can be viewed in the comfort of a pub or at home clashing with all others could have dire consequences.


I disagree, the matches aren't going to be on televisions in homes there won't be any difference in that respect. Unless you buy foreign tv channels you're still going to be watching the same low quality streams, surely? Or are the streams of a decent standard now? I'm not sure.

I've never really bought into this theory of Saturday 3PM matches on Sky bringing lower league attendances down. I'd never stay in and watch a match on telly when I could go and watch Town.

#7 Bluebirds Boyo

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:15 PM

Why did the Premier League, Sky or ESPN ever think they had the right to forbid the British public from watching a Qatari TV channel? :blink:

#8 joebozcfc

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:16 PM

Even if they win I'd love to see how they plan to stop people watching a Premier League stream in the privacy of their own home.


I think the case would be more for the benefit of those supplying the streams, knowing they are within the law could certainly do no wrong, watching streams has never been illegal (although broadcasting, as in a pub etc is) like listening to Pirate radio, the pirate is at fault, not the consumer.

My biggest problem streaming is the best streams get shut forr copyright infringement on Veetle etc, they won't do if this comes around.

I don't actually think it would affect sky money that much either. I know it's not a great stat to go on but I don't know a single person who has cancelled Sky for streaming.

What Alty says about Altrincham attendances. You do realise all these 3 o'clock kick off's have been available on TV first, then via streams for at least the last 10-12 years through Canal+, dodgy ITV digital cards etc. Why would it hurt attendances so much more now?

Edited by joebozcfc, 03 February 2011 - 01:20 PM.
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#9 CAMRAlty

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:20 PM


This could be worrying. If United and/or City can have all their 3pm Saturday kickoffs shown in any pub, I fear Altrincham's average attendances would drop from circa 1,100 to more like 700. I'm sure it's the same with any smaller club. Top level games that can be viewed in the comfort of a pub or at home clashing with all others could have dire consequences.


I disagree, the matches aren't going to be on televisions in homes there won't be any difference in that respect. Unless you buy foreign tv channels you're still going to be watching the same low quality streams, surely? Or are the streams of a decent standard now? I'm not sure.

I've never really bought into this theory of Saturday 3PM matches on Sky bringing lower league attendances down. I'd never stay in and watch a match on telly when I could go and watch Town.


I thought we were talking about just using foreign broadcasters to watch Premier League matches? You know, like the pub in Portsmouth who used Greek telly to show 3pm Saturday games?

I've been into dodgy pubs in Liverpool where they've got the match live, in perfect quality, via some foreign broadcaster.

I know you wouldn't, but that's because you're a big Grimsby fan. Casual match-goers could easily put off. Perhaps it's not as big an issue for Grimsby because you've spent a fair old time in the second and third tiers. For a team like us, getting other fans in can, on occasion, boost the crowd by 30%.

#10 Son of Cod

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:28 PM



This could be worrying. If United and/or City can have all their 3pm Saturday kickoffs shown in any pub, I fear Altrincham's average attendances would drop from circa 1,100 to more like 700. I'm sure it's the same with any smaller club. Top level games that can be viewed in the comfort of a pub or at home clashing with all others could have dire consequences.


I disagree, the matches aren't going to be on televisions in homes there won't be any difference in that respect. Unless you buy foreign tv channels you're still going to be watching the same low quality streams, surely? Or are the streams of a decent standard now? I'm not sure.

I've never really bought into this theory of Saturday 3PM matches on Sky bringing lower league attendances down. I'd never stay in and watch a match on telly when I could go and watch Town.


I thought we were talking about just using foreign broadcasters to watch Premier League matches? You know, like the pub in Portsmouth who used Greek telly to show 3pm Saturday games?

I've been into dodgy pubs in Liverpool where they've got the match live, in perfect quality, via some foreign broadcaster.

I know you wouldn't, but that's because you're a big Grimsby fan. Casual match-goers could easily put off. Perhaps it's not as big an issue for Grimsby because you've spent a fair old time in the second and third tiers. For a team like us, getting other fans in can, on occasion, boost the crowd by 30%.


Yeah, I guess the advantage from a pub's perspective is that they'd be able to legally advertise Saturday 3PM kickoffs.

You're right, I'm probably not looking at this subjectively enough. Once you slip further down The Conference* and certainly into The Conference North/South and further there's going to be a higher percentage of people that go to watch their local team purely as they like going to the football on a Saturday, but can't get to or don't want to pay to get into their "supported" Premier League club who they'd class as they're favourite. What you're saying is the ratio of casual match goers to die hard/keen supporters increases the further down the pyramid?

*no offence...can't be arsed to rephrase that into non Billy Conference Big Bollocks talk

#11 CAMRAlty

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:38 PM

Yeah, I guess the advantage from a pub's perspective is that they'd be able to legally advertise Saturday 3PM kickoffs.

You're right, I'm probably not looking at this subjectively enough. Once you slip further down The Conference* and certainly into The Conference North/South and further there's going to be a higher percentage of people that go to watch their local team purely as they like going to the football on a Saturday, but can't get to or don't want to pay to get into their "supported" Premier League club who they'd class as they're favourite. What you're saying is the ratio of casual match goers to die hard/keen supporters increases the further down the pyramid?

*no offence...can't be arsed to rephrase that into non Billy Conference Big Bollocks talk


Yup.

Exactly. Obviously you're in a far stronger position because Grimsby are a miles bigger club than Altrincham, whilst Manchester United and Manchester City are miles bigger than, errrr, Lincoln, Hull and Scunthorpe. At least we have a genuine hardcore, **** knows what attendances at Hyde, Stalybridge, Droylsden and Mossley would be like. It'll be even worse in places like Merseyside where support for Non-league teams has traditionally been poor.

#12 Son of Cod

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:51 PM

Exactly. Obviously you're in a far stronger position because Grimsby are a miles bigger club than Altrincham, whilst Manchester United and Manchester City are miles bigger than, errrr, Lincoln, Hull and Scunthorpe. At least we have a genuine hardcore, **** knows what attendances at Hyde, Stalybridge, Droylsden and Mossley would be like. It'll be even worse in places like Merseyside where support for Non-league teams has traditionally been poor.


Interesting mention of Hull, it would probably hurt their attendances more than ours. All valid points you raise, Alty.

Edited by Son of Cod, 03 February 2011 - 01:52 PM.
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#13 leez

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:05 PM

umm . i never watch the streams they are poor quality and a mintue behins aswell..

i watch on my sat box ..never miss a game .

i supose it can effect attendances,

but mr murdoch or whatever is the man behind all this you can bet on..

he not creaming so much , or i forgot he controls goverment aswell ...hes and elite..


lets not be sheeps

#14 manc passion

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:07 PM


Even if they win I'd love to see how they plan to stop people watching a Premier League stream in the privacy of their own home.


Exactly. I imagine they'll start cutting off people's broadband after multiple warnings, similar to filesharing offenders.

I await the day somebody's broadband is cut off and they win it back through the courts by crying human rights, citing internet access as a commodity along with gas, electricity and water.

The article is a bit vague though, who is countering Mrs Kokott? Just Sky, or are they forming an alliance with ESPN and The Premier League? I don't stream matches online, but I hope they lose.


And that my friend is what has become of this world.

#15 leez

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:19 PM

eye ,, can see it coming the digital law bill ..or something ..what was it three strikes and out if your caught file share or something simular.

the net is changing just look at the copyright laws on you tube all the stupid adverts .. getting silly .

#16 Jarv

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:25 PM

cutting someone off the Internet will be illegal soon anyway. More and more council services are available only online or will be soon that having at least some internet access will be a necessity. Billions of £ a year would be saved if all queries were handled online rather than over the phone or in person. It simply wont be possible to disconnect anyone from the internet

#17 joebozcfc

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:36 PM

eye ,, can see it coming the digital law bill ..or something ..what was it three strikes and out if your caught file share or something simular.

the net is changing just look at the copyright laws on you tube all the stupid adverts .. getting silly .


Funnily enough, the company who tried to enforce this (ACS:Law google 'ACS:Law p2p file sharing' for a damned good laugh) have only ever won 3 cases in the UK over file sharing. All 3 have one thing in common, the defendant didn't turn up for court!

#18 Tiltontrev

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:44 PM

Streaming, in my eyes, is exactly the same as file sharing...you can have a million court cases, people will still do it regardless. I go to as many games as i can go to, the one's i cant i watch on the internet the result of any court case wont make me change my outlook. [unless its me in the dock obviously] lol.

#19 allouso

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:06 PM

Subscribe to Abu Dhabi sports channel.

#20 leez

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 04:16 PM

Subscribe to Abu Dhabi sports channel.



very very very hard to pick up here in uk ... sat badr ( i think of the top of me head 26 east ) for me in north east ..about a 3 meter dish .. aint got a 3 grand spare m8 let alone the sub .

there s other options..

#21 Busby Boy

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 04:44 PM

I was watching a stream of a game recently, can't remember which one, and it was consistently taken down for "Copyright reasons" which shows they can get them taken down quickly, it's just a case of getting them all.

Luckily, I have Sky/ESPN and go to a fair few games so don't have to rely on them as much but it'll be good news if this ruling goes ahead and they cannot stop streaming foreign feeds.

#22 GodsGift

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:59 PM

Download Sopcast, and find games from P2P site = as good as watching it on TV.

#23 JimJams

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:14 PM

Why are you lot talking about streaming? That is not what this case is about. It's about accessing foreign channels. A lot of streams are still going to be illegal because they are showing subscription based services from home and abraod, for which the end viewer is not paying. Nothing to do with this case will change that. However, if you subscribe to a foreign channel that shows games either on the net or using a satellite or it's a free (generally terrestrial channel), then you are ok, and nobody can stop you, even though for many years, Sky have taken landlords and the like to court because they have installed sat systems with foreign channels under the guise that they are the sole broadcasters of English football in the UK and that these landlords have been breaking hte law etc. As it turns out, they haven't been.

What happens now will depend largely on whether or not foreign broadcasters wish to try to take advantage of this by offering services which can be used in the UK, which is where streaming does have a place in this subject. You'll probably see plenty of sat sets which can access all sorts of foreign channels being sold en masse now, and expect your locals to be stocked up, cos SKY costs them an absolute fk load.

#24 Mr Scruff

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:24 PM

Why are you lot talking about streaming? That is not what this case is about. It's about accessing foreign channels. A lot of streams are still going to be illegal because they are showing subscription based services from home and abraod, for which the end viewer is not paying. Nothing to do with this case will change that. However, if you subscribe to a foreign channel that shows games either on the net or using a satellite or it's a free (generally terrestrial channel), then you are ok, and nobody can stop you, even though for many years, Sky have taken landlords and the like to court because they have installed sat systems with foreign channels under the guise that they are the sole broadcasters of English football in the UK and that these landlords have been breaking hte law etc. As it turns out, they haven't been.

What happens now will depend largely on whether or not foreign broadcasters wish to try to take advantage of this by offering services which can be used in the UK, which is where streaming does have a place in this subject. You'll probably see plenty of sat sets which can access all sorts of foreign channels being sold en masse now, and expect your locals to be stocked up, cos SKY costs them an absolute fk load.


The thing is it will still be illegal to show a foreign service without paying for it or paying to an illicit source for it like many do now. There are ****ing loads of these mini networks set up with many users users using the same subscription

All it really means is that pubs have the right to purchase there football through a source other than Sky's British incarnation. Sky have the monopoly in plenty of other countries as well, Germany and Italy for example. Even if you purchase it from another supplier say ESPN America they are still going tohike the prince up for a pub.

All this will really do is slightly reduce the price . pubs pay for Sky bringing in an element of competition. A lot of Pubs will still pay a premium to bring recognised faces like Rednapp, Gray and Tyler whoever replaces them.

Edited by Mr Scruff, 03 February 2011 - 08:25 PM.
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#25 joebozcfc

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 07:53 AM

Why are you lot talking about streaming? That is not what this case is about. It's about accessing foreign channels. A lot of streams are still going to be illegal because they are showing subscription based services from home and abraod, for which the end viewer is not paying. Nothing to do with this case will change that. However, if you subscribe to a foreign channel that shows games either on the net or using a satellite or it's a free (generally terrestrial channel), then you are ok, and nobody can stop you, even though for many years, Sky have taken landlords and the like to court because they have installed sat systems with foreign channels under the guise that they are the sole broadcasters of English football in the UK and that these landlords have been breaking hte law etc. As it turns out, they haven't been.

What happens now will depend largely on whether or not foreign broadcasters wish to try to take advantage of this by offering services which can be used in the UK, which is where streaming does have a place in this subject. You'll probably see plenty of sat sets which can access all sorts of foreign channels being sold en masse now, and expect your locals to be stocked up, cos SKY costs them an absolute fk load.


This is only illegal for the person hosting the stream and it is illegal because the broadcaster is not paying a fee, not those watching, it has always been this way and always will be. Recording games and saving them on your pc, yes, illegal. Playing what you watch to a crowd in a commercial premises is also illegal, but watching streams at home is absolutely 100% legal.

As for foreign subscription channels, Sky could be about to lose a landmark case in that respect:

http://www.mirrorfoo...icle689697.html

Edited by joebozcfc, 04 February 2011 - 08:20 AM.
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#26 SE Blue

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 08:11 AM

If it wasn't for 'illegal' internet broadcasts I wouldn't see half as many Chelsea games as I do now, in fact with Sopcast I don't think I've missed one Premier League or Champions League match in about 2 years. Also the quality is fine, and in fact some are very clear and probably well on par with a standard definition broadcast on a television.

Never managed to find a pub with the games live via 'dodgy' sattelite boxes though, but I doubt these pubs openly advertise this kind of activity.

#27 joebozcfc

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 08:19 AM

delete please!


Edited by joebozcfc, 04 February 2011 - 08:19 AM.
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#28 avfcgoodie

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 08:28 AM

Streaming, in my eyes, is exactly the same as file sharing...you can have a million court cases, people will still do it regardless. I go to as many games as i can go to, the one's i cant i watch on the internet the result of any court case wont make me change my outlook. [unless its me in the dock obviously] lol.


This.

I go to every Home game and a few away but i'll still watch the away ones I can't get too online partly because 2minutes on MOTD is just not good enough..

#29 petet123

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 08:35 AM

End result - Sky will put their prices up?


The consumer always end up paying the price of any ruling like this, so I'm not sure this will be any different.

#30 Jarv

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 08:55 AM

End result - Sky will put their prices up?


The consumer always end up paying the price of any ruling like this, so I'm not sure this will be any different.


No if anything they will have to drop their prices because otherwise savvy pu8nters will just go and get a new box. Competition can only be a good thing

#31 petet123

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 09:31 AM


End result - Sky will put their prices up?


The consumer always end up paying the price of any ruling like this, so I'm not sure this will be any different.


No if anything they will have to drop their prices because otherwise savvy pu8nters will just go and get a new box. Competition can only be a good thing


People will cancel their entire Sky subscriptions and get a new box? A new box from where?

#32 joebozcfc

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 09:32 AM



End result - Sky will put their prices up?


The consumer always end up paying the price of any ruling like this, so I'm not sure this will be any different.


No if anything they will have to drop their prices because otherwise savvy pu8nters will just go and get a new box. Competition can only be a good thing


People will cancel their entire Sky subscriptions and get a new box? A new box from where?


Any half decent electrical shop.

#33 petet123

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 09:41 AM




End result - Sky will put their prices up?


The consumer always end up paying the price of any ruling like this, so I'm not sure this will be any different.


No if anything they will have to drop their prices because otherwise savvy pu8nters will just go and get a new box. Competition can only be a good thing


People will cancel their entire Sky subscriptions and get a new box? A new box from where?


Any half decent electrical shop.


I was trying to work out what he meant by 'new box'. As in, a whole new service provider instead of Sky, or some kind of additional box JUST for the extra football on Saturdays?

#34 SBFC Fan

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 09:51 AM

FAO people from Birmingham isn't this what they are doing in Rococo on Broad Street if so how have they got away with advertising 3pm kick offs and showing 3 or 4 games at a time without having legal action taken towards them

#35 Tiltontrev

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:23 PM

Two out of my four most local pubs show every single Blues & Villa game regardless if it's on Sky or not, they dont 'advertise' it as such but they certainly dont make any secret of it, dont know how or why they get round the legalities of it but they do it somehow.

#36 andy villa

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:31 PM

the social clubs around where i used to live in birmingham showed most villa and small heath games... i watched a stream of the cska game in 'the royal', in sutton coldfield.... a lot of pubs and clubs do it quite openly...

its funny, where i live in devon, most pubs and clubs show just the sky games, and its mainly man utd, liverpool and now since chelsea "fans" have crawled out from underneath their red duvets, a lot of chelsea games too...

whats even funnier, is the man utd and liverpool devon reds slating the chelsea fans for being glory hunters and crawling out of the woodwork now they are successful...

talk about irony!

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#37 avfcgoodie

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:32 PM

FAO people from Birmingham isn't this what they are doing in Rococo on Broad Street if so how have they got away with advertising 3pm kick offs and showing 3 or 4 games at a time without having legal action taken towards them


Yeah Rococo do it openly, they one of the likely losers if you like, smaller pubs away from the city centre are never going to stop though.

#38 Destruction

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:39 PM

This is good news.

The pub industry is on its arse and this will be a big help to them. My local pub has to pay £2,000 a month to show Sky Sports, perhaps they'll now go down the foreign channel route at a fraction of the cost.

#39 layer cake

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:50 PM

Exactly, this has got to be a good thing in my opinion.

#40 andy villa

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 12:52 PM

comes at a good time for me, i have just cancelled skumsports after getting sick to death of paying silly amounts to listen to them ass lick the winnetts off their flavour of the month favourites...




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