2020/2021 L2 Discussion

Son of Cod

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
4,308
Reaction score
3,590
Points
113
Location
London
Supports
Grimsby Town
Damian Reeves is one of these anomolies - he used to make more money as a painter and decorator whilst combining playing for Altrincham and topping the goalscoring charts most years.

I find that really unambitious to be honest.
He was a plasterer I think? More money in that if you crack it.

Disagree that you can outright label everyone that does that as unambitious. Reeves for example has his own business and has probably provided a stable life for his family while having the flexibility to take time off when he needs. Not to be sniffed at. He probably knew he'd only ever get to League 2....maybe League 1 at a stretch.

Reeves was a cracking player at Conference level for several seasons though, I'll give you that. We tried to sign him a few times I think.
 

Kenneth E End

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
4,407
Reaction score
524
Points
113
Supports
Luton Town
I wouldn't be too critical, when you consider how many people have a career as a professional footballer as a percentage of those who play the game on a regular basis. A footballing career is a relatively short one, few players last beyond their mid-30's, and opportunities to stay in the game (as a coach, manager or pundit) are fairly limited. It is also a career that can be cut short by injury, even at a very young age, so having a job that you can rely on or fall back to does make a lot of sense. We signed Dayle Grubb from Weston-Super-Mare a couple of years ago, he had been working as a PE Teacher while playing part time for them. He has just been released by the club and clearly has a career that he can go back to if he doesn't get another job in football.
Long term its a conservative but certainly sensible way, but we all dream about playing football professionally. He for sure could've got a League 2 club at least and I'm sure could've matched his secondary wages for maybe only 1extra training session a week. Look at the likes of Andre Gray who has scored goals in every division from National North upwards.

John Still said years ago when he was with D&R, he would lose a lot of his players who didn't want to go full time when they got promoted to the Football League.
 

Son of Cod

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
4,308
Reaction score
3,590
Points
113
Location
London
Supports
Grimsby Town
Long term its a conservative but certainly sensible way, but we all dream about playing football professionally. He for sure could've got a League 2 club at least and I'm sure could've matched his secondary wages for maybe only 1extra training session a week. Look at the likes of Andre Gray who has scored goals in every division from National North upwards.

John Still said years ago when he was with D&R, he would lose a lot of his players who didn't want to go full time when they got promoted to the Football League.
Andre Gray was younger and is/was a much more physical and fitter player than Reeves though.
 

Si Robin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Messages
2,060
Reaction score
505
Points
113
Location
Tewkesbury
Supports
Cheltenham Town
When we got promoted in 1999 we lost one of our best players precisely because they wouldn't go pro.

Jason Eaton had just been made a manager at a health club or something and he'd just turned 30, so knew he didn't have long left in the game. The club offered him a p/t deal but he only wanted to do it if he could give it his all, but ultimately we couldn't give him the security that this job did. He's still running the place now and was much better off because of it.
 

Greenacres

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
1,457
Reaction score
472
Points
83
Location
West Country
Supports
Forest Green Rovers
Although the game is awash with money at the top level, or so it seems to those of us who follow teams down here, it hasn't always been that way. I have been following footy for quite a few years and can remember a time where a lot of ex-players, even those who had played at a high level, drifted out of the game into fairly routine second careers. I think Neil Webb, who played for England, ended up working as a postman and many ex-players ended up running pubs. Where I grew up there was an ex-pro who had played in the First Division in the early 80's running a pub. I guess it is ultimately down to the individual player, whether they want to trade job-security for a fairly short career as a footballer where the financial gains may not be that great...there aren't too many who match Jamie Vardy's success.
 

Luke Imp

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
9,268
Reaction score
2,196
Points
113
Location
Lincoln
Supports
Lincoln City
Not sure Reeves was unambitious as such, although being a self employed plasterer would be far easier to pick back up again post football career than leaving an office job and trying to get back in.

I don't know what sort of money Alty paid but there was always talk that when FT Clubs approached him, the likes of Mansfield, Lincoln, Grimsby, that his combined wages were far above what was affordable to make it worth his while. Does Alty Pieman still post on here? He'll probably know.

I had a conversation with a Woking fan a few years ago and asked him why they were still a part-time club when they were based in a fairly affluent part of the South East. His response was exactly this, most of their players had really good and well paid jobs. They played for Woking because they were of a reasonable standard and loved playing football, they just saw the income from the game as a top up for their wages.

We had a time during the last 5-10 years in the Conference where we swapped between full and part-time and I can remember a number of players who came and went because they wanted one of those arrangements and not the other. I can't remember all the details but I am sure there was one player who left us to become a Police Officer, another who went into teaching and possibly Wayne Turk (can't remember why he left but think it was something to do with the full/part-time arrangement).
I think most clubs outside of London will have had the same problems trying to attract the decent southern players. I think that's why southern clubs generally perform better in the NL than the northern ones. There are tonnes of players who get go up a level or to bigger teams if they wanted but if they're working in finance, marketing etc then financially it makes it a no brainer.
 

Chris FGR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
7,500
Reaction score
3,015
Points
113
Supports
Forest Green
Quite a few of our players have had other business interests on the side. Makes sense.
 

AdamStag

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
6,283
Reaction score
1,029
Points
113
Supports
Mansfield Town
I remember Mansfield repeatedly going for Damian reeves of Altrinchsm when in the conference (ironically know him through a mate as only a few miles from their ground) and he was exactly the same, he had a painter/decorator company as was earning about £800 a week or so, whereas Mansfield were offering him about £1200 a week (quite big in the conference at the time) and he was the same / wasn’t worth it in the short haul.
 

The_Boss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
3,075
Reaction score
1,621
Points
113
Location
Chapel-en-le-Frith, High Peak
Supports
Macclesfield Town
Yes the likes of Reeve's is a good example I think. He was a top scorer in non league for many years and it was pretty obvious that he would be able to do it in the league. When it comes to their wages, they are often getting really decent money for the footballing side still, as well as their job. Alty will definitely have been paying Reeves £500+ a week, which over 42 weeks is an extra £21k in his pocket, alongside a very decent level of earning from his business. If he's then up in say the £75k-£100k earnings bracket, it suddenly takes a lot more money to persuade him to go pro. I personally would still say he was unambitious, he could have had a crack at the league for a few years and kept his business running with others working for him.


But the other side is the shit players, who really just wouldn't be good enough - that would be the major concern for Carlisle.
 

Son of Cod

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
4,308
Reaction score
3,590
Points
113
Location
London
Supports
Grimsby Town
Yes the likes of Reeve's is a good example I think. He was a top scorer in non league for many years and it was pretty obvious that he would be able to do it in the league. When it comes to their wages, they are often getting really decent money for the footballing side still, as well as their job. Alty will definitely have been paying Reeves £500+ a week, which over 42 weeks is an extra £21k in his pocket, alongside a very decent level of earning from his business. If he's then up in say the £75k-£100k earnings bracket, it suddenly takes a lot more money to persuade him to go pro. I personally would still say he was unambitious, he could have had a crack at the league for a few years and kept his business running with others working for him.


But the other side is the shit players, who really just wouldn't be good enough - that would be the major concern for Carlisle.
Depends what your ambitions are. I'd take the security and stability you get from £75k-100k a year for the majority of my working life over a shot at being a League Two player. He's probably well on course for being set for life. There's no amount of people that have failed to be successful footballers that won't have that. Doesn't mean Reeves isn't ambitious, it means he has different priorities.
 

The_Boss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
3,075
Reaction score
1,621
Points
113
Location
Chapel-en-le-Frith, High Peak
Supports
Macclesfield Town
Depends what your ambitions are. I'd take the security and stability you get from £75k-100k a year for the majority of my working life over a shot at being a League Two player. He's probably well on course for being set for life. There's no amount of people that have failed to be successful footballers that won't have that. Doesn't mean Reeves isn't ambitious, it means he has different priorities.
Yeah I get what your saying, but my point (and from reading my post back was awfully made!), is there was nothing stopping him from keeping his business and making the step up to the professional game for a few years. I'm sure the monetary results would have been pretty similar.
 

hellogregory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
5,216
Reaction score
1,106
Points
113
Supports
Carlisle United
It’s easy to take the piss and just assume that we’ll get relegated, but fact is we’d be the number 1 attraction in football for part time players.

Charlie Austin was a part time footballer, so was Jamie Vardy. I know it’s unlikely we’ll find any of that quality but there could be some decent prospects that have enough to see us ok for at least a season.

I think the frustrating thing for the club is the waiting on the go ahead that we’re allowed to go down this route for a season. We apparently have part time targets that we can’t complete deals for until we get the ok. We also have targets for if we have to stay full time, but again can’t complete deals while we don’t know how we’ll be operating next season.
 

MUFCdon

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
47
Reaction score
13
Points
8
Location
United States
Supports
Manchester United
Yeah I get what your saying, but my point (and from reading my post back was awfully made!), is there was nothing stopping him from keeping his business and making the step up to the professional game for a few years. I'm sure the monetary results would have been pretty similar.
Risking an embarrassing business bankruptcy to kick a ball for a no mark team like Grimsby United or Darlington is a very risky move.

Could break your leg in training on the first day. Football careers are short and precarious. People will always want their ceiling done. They won't always want carthorse footballers.
 
Last edited:

shoddycollins

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
8,147
Reaction score
2,514
Points
113
Location
In the Chris Beech wonderland
Supports
Carlisle United
It’s easy to take the piss and just assume that we’ll get relegated, but fact is we’d be the number 1 attraction in football for part time players.
Unless other clubs follow suit, in which case we'll be well down in their preferences. Part time players are going to be less willing than professionals to play for a club that is far from their home and we already have difficulty attracting professionals to come to Carlisle when they live in places like Manchester.

Jamie Vardy was part time but he had to go full time in order to realise his potential. No matter how much natural talent a part time player might have, a squad of them aren't going to match up over the course of a season to squads of players who are training professionally.
 

Monkey Tennis

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
2,816
Reaction score
1,263
Points
113
Location
Barra
Supports
Bluebirds
Unless other clubs follow suit, in which case we'll be well down in their preferences. Part time players are going to be less willing than professionals to play for a club that is far from their home and we already have difficulty attracting professionals to come to Carlisle when they live in places like Manchester.

Jamie Vardy was part time but he had to go full time in order to realise his potential. No matter how much natural talent a part time player might have, a squad of them aren't going to match up over the course of a season to squads of players who are training professionally.
There is also the point that part-time players play in their local leagues so that there is very little travelling involved. Good luck getting part-time players taking two days out to travel to Exeter midweek.

You would expect it to be all over the Carlisle forum or on Twitter if there were talks of going part-time, but the only mention of it is on this forum. It's totally made up nonsense, isn't it?
 

Soz

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
11
Points
8
Location
Staffs
Supports
PV
If Carlisle are only doing it for a year then that is another factor in why a player may not want to sign there even with the lure of league 2 football.

It's a big gamble, it is probably going to be quite hard to go back full time in a years time, if that is the plan.
 

hellogregory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
5,216
Reaction score
1,106
Points
113
Supports
Carlisle United
There is also the point that part-time players play in their local leagues so that there is very little travelling involved. Good luck getting part-time players taking two days out to travel to Exeter midweek

You would expect it to be all over the Carlisle forum or on Twitter if there were talks of going part-time, but the only mention of it is on this forum. It's totally made up nonsense, isn't it?
I don’t know if it’s made up nonsense, it’s only what I’ve heard. I hope it is nonsense.

The Carlisle United forum has died during COVID, nothing gets put on it.
 

Chris FGR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
7,500
Reaction score
3,015
Points
113
Supports
Forest Green
Interview with Carlisle CEO up on their website. Says nothing about going part time.

Forgot they had David Holdsworth there, expect loads of signings in the next couple of months, he loves a transfer or ten.
 

shoddycollins

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
8,147
Reaction score
2,514
Points
113
Location
In the Chris Beech wonderland
Supports
Carlisle United

hellogregory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
5,216
Reaction score
1,106
Points
113
Supports
Carlisle United
Interview with Carlisle CEO up on their website. Says nothing about going part time.

Forgot they had David Holdsworth there, expect loads of signings in the next couple of months, he loves a transfer or ten.
I wouldn’t expect him to say it in an interview. The word is we are awaiting the relevant approval from EFL before we can say anything on the matter. This is why our transfer business is completely on hold as we don’t know whether we are signing part timers or full time players.
 

Conker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
3,598
Reaction score
694
Points
113
Supports
Mansfield Town FC
Twitter
@CONKS__
I still shudder with Holdsworth, what a terrible manager he was.
 

Dan Code

New Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Messages
4
Reaction score
1
Points
3
Location
Cornwall
Supports
Tranmere
I know Jake Gosling (once Gibralatars all time top international goal scorer with 2) and he sacked the game off at 24/25 despite knowing he could have grinded out 3/4 more seasons at the bottom end of L2 / in the NL. He followed his dad and went into the RAF as he would rather forge a career and have the added benefit of probably being the first name on the forces team sheet for the next few years than bum around for £600+ a week.
 

dedwardp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2015
Messages
1,718
Reaction score
424
Points
83
Supports
Colchester United

Nothing in here really that hasn't been said elsewhere on this site, but the key points I suppose would be;

The EFL are currently consulting with member clubs with a view to starting the 2020/21 season on either the 29th August or September 12th. In both cases, the season would be scheduled to finish on May 8th 2021.

There is also talk about allowing a limited number of fans to attend games. 25% of capacity has been a figure that has been discussed as realistic to comply with the 1m+ social distancing rules that are currently in place.

With it being highly likely that salary capping is going to be introduced, then that could provide Colchester United with a massive opportunity and it’s one we must exploit.

The current levels being suggested as playing budget caps are £1.5m for League Two and £2.5m for League One.

If salary caps are introduced at those levels, they will make those leagues a level playing field. But, potentially one that should be tilted in our favour thanks to our infrastructure, facilities and most of all our Academy.

Can Colchester United be highly competitive in League Two with a £1.5m playing budget and everyone else capped to that same level? Can Colchester United be highly competitive in League One with everyone else capped to a £2.5m budget? If we get the Academy firing on all cylinders, then the answer is a clear yes.

This coming season, and maybe even the one after that, will be difficult as clubs transition from their previous budgets down to the new salary caps.

It’s also going to favour those clubs that have just a few players left on contract. Those clubs will be able to exploit the surplus of players who will be looking for a new club this season and sadly we are not one of those clubs.

However, those advantages are short-term but our investment in youth is well established and the Academy we have built can provide players that are under twenty one years old and don’t count towards the salary cap.
 

Soz

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
53
Reaction score
11
Points
8
Location
Staffs
Supports
PV
I don't mind salary caps as an idea but I think it should be higher than £1.5m.

I know our CEO has said that he is in favour of teams being able to invest their money as they see fit, although I do think it's silly when the tinpotters with benefactors try and buy the league. £1.5m just feels like an upper-reasonable league 2 budget for me, and would potentially punish bigger teams who are relegated from league 1.
 

valefan16

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
8,187
Reaction score
886
Points
113
Supports
Port Vale
I don't mind salary caps as an idea but I think it should be higher than £1.5m.

I know our CEO has said that he is in favour of teams being able to invest their money as they see fit, although I do think it's silly when the tinpotters with benefactors try and buy the league. £1.5m just feels like an upper-reasonable league 2 budget for me, and would potentially punish bigger teams who are relegated from league 1.
It saddles the bigger clubs and brings them down to the level of the smaller ones with much less chance of progressing back up the league really. More I’ve read about it the more worried I am by it, despite us never throwing money at it anyway.

If you make cup money or a big sale or sell on fee (say if Hugill happened now rather than under Smurf) then you should be able to reap the rewards of that.

Rules on overspending beyond means yes but to hamstring the bigger clubs doesn’t seem right. Assume Vale, Bolton, Bradford, Mansfield, Salford, Tranmere for certain would be against it.
 

Indian Dan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
6,430
Reaction score
2,022
Points
113
Location
Kefalonia
Supports
Swindon
It gives owners a fairly easy cop out, though. There’s no incentive at all to get promoted from L1 to the Championship.

We’re all getting cast adrift.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
15,043
Messages
937,937
Members
5,229
Latest member
citationfootball
Top