"But I am Sol Campbell"

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Your post was racist and stupid. I would like to know what a cognitive argument is, though.

In what way was it racist? Did I sit there and say it was because they're black that they've been rubbish managers? No. Did I use a racially derogatory term? No. If I call Paul Lambert a shit manager, am I being racist because I'm not Scottish? No.

Chris Hughton. Chris Ramsey at QPR. Les Ferdinand a first-team coach at QPR. Terry Connor assistant manager at Ipswich. Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink now manager of Burton. Edgar Davids was Barnet boss not so long ago.

Which further proves this argument wrong, but fair enough on knowing that, I just thought of the ones I could think of off the top of my head.
 

Jockney

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The asinine assertion that black professionals are part of a homogenous group and shouldn't be considered for jobs until a trailblazer can make them a viable proposition for overwhelmingly white employers is racist. I'm sorry that your understanding of how racism works is facile at best, but then it would explain a lot of the bollocks in this thread....
 
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I didn't make that assertion though, the only thing I said is that when a good black manager comes up, he will be employed. A club employs its best option, and whether that is a white man, a brown man, a black man, or even a purple fucking reindeer, they will be employed. That was simply what I was saying, we don't need a 'Rooney rule' over here that states a minimum amount of people interviewed for the job must be black. As someone earlier in the thread stated, football clubs now will do anything to get ahead, and if that means that employing a purple reindeer to manage your club as they are the best candidate, they will be hired.
 

Pyeman

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To say "there are no black managers that are good enough, so that's why there are no black managers in employment" isn't racist, and it sounds like that's the point Jase was trying to make.

However, this raises the bigger issue of why there are no black managers coming through.

I'm not sure if it is a structural issue in terms of a lack of opportunities for black coaches to progress into management, or possibly a cultural issue whereby black coaches aren't encouraged to take that route.

Either way, I think there are clearly issues that need to be addressed, I'm just not sure that racist clubs/owners are the problem.


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nousername

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Um.... but some racist people think white people are inherently more intelligent than black people, so they wouldn't employ a black person to manage their football club. They'd think that they were making the best decision for the club.

Except that wasn't the point I was making. I'm not denying that there may be racist owners of clubs out there, who promote a transfer or recruitment policy based on skin colour.

However, the incentive or - to be more precise - the penalties for endorsing such a policy and rejecting a large proportion of the market would condemn the club to almost certain mediocrity, as all the non-racist clubs would benefit to their detriment. (Never mind the PR disaster that might ensue in the event it went public, Dave Whelan springs to mind here...)
 
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To say "there are no black managers that are good enough, so that's why there are no black managers in employment" isn't racist, and it sounds like that's the point Jase was trying to make.

That's probably a better way to put it.
 

BigDaveCUFC

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A lot of lower league clubs are very very happy to gamble on a very well known ex player as manager because of the initial boost on attendances and that could be doubly so if it was a club around the Arsenal/Tottenham areas where they know it could maybe latch onto some local fans of the clubs he played for.

A Dagenham, or maybe Sutton or Dartford, Carshalton, Hornchurch, Thurrock, Ebbsfleet, etc, etc, etc is blooming loads.

and as shown with the likes of Ince and Di Canio and Poyet because your a name if you have a slight bit of success you soon get shopved up the league within 2-3 seasons.
 

JimJams

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JimJams, JaseTheVillain.

The asinine assertion that black professionals are part of a homogenous group and shouldn't be considered for jobs until a trailblazer can make them a viable proposition for overwhelmingly white employers is racist. I'm sorry that your understanding of how racism works is facile at best, but then it would explain a lot of the bollocks in this thread....

When I read Jases post I didn't see it say that black coaches should be considered for jobs only once one has already achieved notoriety for being good at his job. I read that he said if a black manager is good enough, he'll be appointed. If he's not, he won't.
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
A lot of lower league clubs are very very happy to gamble on a very well known ex player as manager because of the initial boost on attendances and that could be doubly so if it was a club around the Arsenal/Tottenham areas where they know it could maybe latch onto some local fans of the clubs he played for.

A Dagenham, or maybe Sutton or Dartford, Carshalton, Hornchurch, Thurrock, Ebbsfleet, etc, etc, etc is blooming loads.

and as shown with the likes of Ince and Di Canio and Poyet because your a name if you have a slight bit of success you soon get shopved up the league within 2-3 seasons.

Exactly. So ex players looking for a job only really have the chance of getting a job at a club who want a big name. I'm sure there are a load of clubs in London who would at least bring Sol Campbell in for an interview. John Barnes is a slightly different prospect, however. He's had two jobs and been a bit shit in both of them.
 

merseyboyred

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General point; there's a deeper issue with racism than what a lot of people see as racism. Not all racism is overt.

Exactly. So ex players looking for a job only really have the chance of getting a job at a club who want a big name. I'm sure there are a load of clubs in London who would at least bring Sol Campbell in for an interview. John Barnes is a slightly different prospect, however. He's had two jobs and been a bit shit in both of them.

He was excellent in charge of Jamaica.
 

HarvSFC

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Interesting stat from Martin Samuel's article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Poor-results-did-John-Barnes-not-racism.html

The experience of Chris Hughton (Tottenham Hotspur, Newcastle United, Birmingham City, Norwich City, Brighton and Hove Albion), Paul Ince (Macclesfield Town, Milton Keynes Dons, Blackburn Rovers, Notts County, Blackpool) or Keith Curle (Mansfield Town, Chester City, Torquay United, Crystal Palace, Notts County, Carlisle United) supports the theory of the managerial merry-go-round, but suggests that once a black coach is on board, his opportunity is no different from that of a white one.

And of course just last year Clarence Seedorf was manager of AC Milan, one of the biggest clubs in the world at the age of 38.
 

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I think Ebeneezer Goode made a great point, that nobody can really confirm or deny whether or not black managers will find it any harder than white managers, as we dont know the figures for people actually taking their coaching badges.

It also seems to imply that just because we have a lot of black ex footballers around, that they should all immediately want to be a manager. Thats not the case, and certainly not any more. Whereas going into management or coaching after retirement was the natural progression, there are a lot more opportunities now, and thats not the only route. Dion Dublin, Dwight Yorke etc are pundits, Patrick Vieira and Les Ferdinand have boardroom positions at City and QPR, Clarke Carlisle was PFA chairman, the likes of Jason Roberts are involved in work with their own charities or foundations, and countless will do what the likes of Ian Taylor do now with ambassadorial roles at a former club.

Sol Campbell applying for the Villa job with zero experience, and having a moan about why Gary Neville has a decent job doesnt really prove anything. Christ, he's a basket case.
 

JimJams

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B-b-but... He's Sol Campbell!
 
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When I read Jases post I didn't see it say that black coaches should be considered for jobs only once one has already achieved notoriety for being good at his job. I read that he said if a black manager is good enough, he'll be appointed. If he's not, he won't.

And that, good people, is how a sane person would read my post.
 

Jarv

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would be interesting to see how many jobs Campbell and Barnes have actually applied for, the level and the timescale
 
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When you have as bad a record as Barnes it's going to be difficult to get a job, regardless of whether there is underlying racism or not. Campbell could probably get a lower league job, but his ego is far too large to drop down that far.
 

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27982F7E00000578-0-image-a-114_1429105313403.jpg


But I am Sulzeer Jeremiah Campbell.
 

mase

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'Operation black vote' is a thing?

Or is that something someone knocked up?
 

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It looks like the front cover to Sol's David Bowie tribute album has leaked.
 

SALTIRE

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... posted earlier, ignore...
 

SALTIRE

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If whites blacked up even for an ad it'd be deemed racist. Sol Campbell has always wanted to be white though I suppose (he's obviously a bit of a tarry brush with a name like Campbell mind!) - whats the old saying? 'Never trust a Campbell' - very true in this case.
 

HarvSFC

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What are you talking about?
 

SALTIRE

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What are you talking about?
Well he's always on about race this and race that, as if he's been undermined throughout his life and career, you think he wants to be white like Michael Jackson went! The never trust a Campbell thing is from the massacre of Glencoe when the Campbells wiped out the MacDonalds after the latter had put them up in hospitality.
 

LordJord

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Has Sol Campbell ever coached anywhere previously? The self entitlement of some ex players always astounds me. Just because you were good as a player does not mean you should be guaranteed a job as a manager at a top team, its a completely different job!

Fair play to people like Hasselbaink, has continued Rowetts good work at Burton. Dont see Campbell applying for a job down the ladder any time soon.
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
Patrick Vieira and Les Ferdinand have boardroom positions at City and QPR

Vieira is manager of City's EDS side, and a lot of fans would like to see him given a crack at the first team job, especially if Pellegrini was given the boot before the end of the season.
 

SALTIRE

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Saltire has just sunk to new levels of idiocy.

A remarkable achievement given his usual content.
Look past the rhetoric Scruff and you'll see the truth. You've never awoken to the light...
 

Kim Mitten

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I'd also like to see some figures regarding coaching badges etc etc before fully wading into this argument. I would add that if anyone really thinks football isn't racist at a boardroom level probably thinks match fixing doesn't happen. The majority of boardroom's in English professional football make Mayfair old boys clubs look open minded.

We should throw this further though, to a group of society that does have well numbered qualified coaches - women. Why are there no women, even as assistants and coaches?
 

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