Is the UK anti-semitic?

Womble98

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Thread starter #1
http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-maureen-lipman-might-leave-uk-over-anti-semitism-103945

Recently lots of Jewish people have stated that they believe the UK is anti-semitic and have considered leaving. In a poll about 58% of Jews said that they believe anti-semitism in the UK is akin to levels in the 1930s.

Surely that itself is hugely flawed, as very few of those who can remember the 1930's will still be alive?

I don't personally think it is, I think there are anti-semitic incidents fueled by the events in Gaza in the same way that a Muslim terrorist attack fuels attacks on Muslims. I also think it is laughable that these people consider Israel, which has had numerous mass-stabbing attacks, rocket attacks etc, to be a safer place than the UK.

Any thoughts?
 

rudebwoyben

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#2
Maureen Lipman is not really a reliable guide to the current levels of anti-Semitism. Last summer, she stated that she was quitting the Labour Party as it was taking an anti-Semitic turn.....because Ed Milliband and the Shadow Cabinet had decided to take a more critical line about Israel's onslaught on Gaza.

The Board of Deputies, which is the UK's Jewish communal organisation, have set up a group called the Campaign against Anti-Semitism. They recently ran a survey which supposedly ascertained British Jews perceptions of anti-Semitism. This survey was extremely flawed on a number of levels - first of all it was filled with leading questions that were designed to channel the respondents' answers to an extremely negative picture in the UK. Secondly the survey sample was self-selecting and unbalanced. I received the survey invite in my email and took part.
Anyway, for some extra context - just read these as well
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/01/uk-jews-muslims-team-hate-150127091540305.html
http://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/two-speeches-may-and-pickles.html
For the record, I'm Jewish and I'm involved with this group: http://jfjfp.com/ and like a lot of this Jewish cultural group's stuff: http://jewdas.org/
I wouldn't ever dream of emigrating to Israel, although my mum is Israeli either..
 

rudebwoyben

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#3
That's not to say that there is no problem with anti-Semitism at all. However, the best way to combat it is to work with other communities to eliminate the misconceptions and ignorance that lead to anti-Semitism.
Maureen Lipman has a history of conflating legitimate criticism of Israel and Zionism (which is a political ideology) with anti-Semitism.
 

Womble98

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Thread starter #4
Thanks for that, interesting and well made points, and that article on Jewish and Muslim cooperation is really uplifting.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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#6
It's a pretty standard tactic amongst Zionists. We definitely don't criticise Israel because it's an aggressive white colony in the Middle East perpetrating all sorts of war crimes and crimes against humanity, it's definitely because Jew-hating is just in our nature. That said, I do think anti-Semitism is on the rise, but it doesn't manifest arbitrarily. Jewish "chosen people (supremacist)" culture is suspicious and elitist by nature and lends itself to distrust and resentment. And imported bigotries from the Islamic world doesn't help the plight of European Jews either.
 

BigDaveCUFC

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#7
Not Anti-Jewish

I think its got abit Anti Eastern Europeans and Anti Muslim

but that I think sometimes has been stemmed from fear than some genuine real reasoning.
 

rudebwoyben

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#8
Not Anti-Jewish

I think its got abit Anti Eastern Europeans and Anti Muslim

but that I think sometimes has been stemmed from fear than some genuine real reasoning.
By and large, I don't think most people in Britain notice the Jewish communities throughout the UK.
The situation isn't comparable to the 1930s. Not remotely. It's not even as bad as it was after the war when Moseley revived the British Union of Fascists and organised marches throughout Dalston and Bethnal Green where there were large Jewish communities. There were outbreaks of anti-Semitic violence against Jews and Jewish-owned property and businesses stemming a great deal from anger at British casualties caused in Palestine by the bomb attacks of the Irgun and the BUF tried to harness this to increase their support. Naturally this was completely reprehensible and the actions of the BUF were defeated in large part by Jews organising themselves and defeating the BUF in the streets (the '43 group).
 
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Alty

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#9
Only London (and Essex and Herts) and Manchester (and Cheshire and Lancashire) have sizeable Jewish communities, so I do think there's probably quite a lot of ignorance when it comes to people's views of Jewish people throughout the country. But I've seldom, if ever, come across genuine hatred of Jews. The occasional stupid joke? Sure. Criticism of Israel? Plenty. But certainly nothing I'd have thought was unpleasant/threatening enough to make someone consider leaving the country.

Mind you, it's hard to know when you're not a member of that community, I guess.
 

rudebwoyben

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#10
There used to be more sizable Jewish communities throughout the country but people have moved, died off, their descendants have assimilated into the general population and you're right = the main Jewish communities are in the areas you mention above.
 
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#12
I don't live in a Jewish area and don't think I've ever encountered a Jew in London, not knowingly anyway. I've seen Asians racially abused physically and verbally, blacks racially abused, Islam is taking a battering at the moment...can't say I've really noticed any spikes in anti-Semitism. I may not be the best judge due to not really being around the Jewish community but if it was bad enough to cause people to leave the country then you'd think it'd be something most people would be aware of. Anti-Semitism seems to get thrown around a lot so without any real evidence put forward it's hard to take the claim seriously, I think any normal human being would be appalled by Israel's actions towards Palestine and vice versa.

Willing to be educated on the subject by anyone who'd like to challenge my view.
 

rudebwoyben

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#13
This whole of Jews in Europe fleeing their countries because of anti-Semitism is rather contradicted by the fact that hundreds of thousands of Jewish Israelis have left Israel to live in Europe.
 

Pliny Harris

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#14
Grew up with people scoring "Jew goals" on their FIFA games, older people complaining of being "jewed" out of things, some dickhead classmates singing about burning Jews, Jewish gravestones being defaced in the area where my dad grew up, the odd grand claims on Jews running this country and the odd one or two other things. That being said I've never had Jewish friends complain about anti-Semitism being inflicted on them particularly, though they're more Jew-ish than Jewish. I'd take those reports very seriously though.
 

rudebwoyben

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#15
Yes, this sort of casual anti-Semitism is still around quite a lot and is quite depressing. There's equivalents for other minorities as well.
I'm wary of placing much credence into reports of levels of serious anti-Semitism by the CST, they have their own agenda that they're playing by and the suspectness of their position was revealed when they advised the Home Secretary not to allow a leader of the Islamic Movement into the UK. The Islamic Movement are a political party in Israel who are supported by some of Israel's Palestinian citizens (those who live within the 1948 Green Line). Thus, we had a situation where a leader whose actions are deemed perfectly legal in Israel was denied entry to the UK because he was deemed that if he entered he would incite hatred against Jews here.
He appealed his case and the verdict was overturned.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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#17
^^ Not really relevant but made me chuckle

Scott Wood

Scott Wood writes regularly for Londonist, Fortean Times and The Skeptic (UK). He has contributed to the encyclopaedia Ghosts, Spirits, and Psychics: The Paranormal from Alchemy to Zombies and Antony Clayton’s book Folkore of London. He is the author of London Urban Legends: The Corpse on the Tube and the host and co-organiser of the London Fortean Society.
 

Destruction

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#18
Grew up with people scoring "Jew goals" on their FIFA games, older people complaining of being "jewed" out of things, some dickhead classmates singing about burning Jews, Jewish gravestones being defaced in the area where my dad grew up, the odd grand claims on Jews running this country and the odd one or two other things. That being said I've never had Jewish friends complain about anti-Semitism being inflicted on them particularly, though they're more Jew-ish than Jewish. I'd take those reports very seriously though.
What's a Jew goal?
 

Womble98

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Thread starter #20
When you score like this:

Pretty sure people like KSI calling it that has made it even more prevalent today.
 

Pliny Harris

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#21
I know it's not a biggie for many people, Jew goals, being "jewed" or "turked" with your change by the cashier or what have you, but I do see it as casual anti-Semitism/racism and would not willingly deal with anyone who used those words. There was a section on this on the Today programme this morning, same chap mentioning that he'd been attacked multiple times for being (appearing, I guess) Jewish, and seeing that crazed person with "Kill All Jews" printed on the back of his football shirt. I don't think there are comparative statistics on race- or ethnicity-specific racist incidents with population figures to weigh against them but I believe overall it's part of the all-round racism that still exists in society. I'm not really qualified to comment beyond that.
 

Ian_Wrexham

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#22
It's a pretty standard tactic amongst Zionists. We definitely don't criticise Israel because it's an aggressive white colony in the Middle East perpetrating all sorts of war crimes and crimes against humanity, it's definitely because Jew-hating is just in our nature. That said, I do think anti-Semitism is on the rise, but it doesn't manifest arbitrarily. Jewish "chosen people (supremacist)" culture is suspicious and elitist by nature and lends itself to distrust and resentment. And imported bigotries from the Islamic world doesn't help the plight of European Jews either.
Not sure I've ever met a Jewish person who's ever suggested or intimated that they consider themselves 'chosen people'. Like, even radical Zionist groups like the ADL deny that "chosen people" implies superiority. Jewish supremacism just isn't a thing, apart from colonialist racism against Palestinians. You're sounding like a massively credulous anti-semite there.

I like a lot of this Jewish cultural group's stuff: http://jewdas.org/
Went to a gig they organised the other week. Nice bunch. Good blog too.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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#23
Not sure I've ever met a Jewish person who's ever suggested or intimated that they consider themselves 'chosen people'. Like, even radical Zionist groups like the ADL deny that "chosen people" implies superiority. Jewish supremacism just isn't a thing, apart from colonialist racism against Palestinians.
Well of course Zionist groups would maintain that their chosen people ideology doesn't imply superiority, they'd never be able to maintain their victim narrative if they did. The scripture and mythology itself however is fairly overt about it. And besides, it's not even about what they are or what they believe so much as what they're perceived to.

You're sounding like a massively credulous anti-semite there.
No response from a social justice warrior is ever complete without hysterical cries of "bigot!".
 
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Alty

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#24
Did anyone see Question Time last night? Came from Finchley and had George Galloway on the panel. It got extremely heated.

FWIW I think claims about Galloway being anti-semitic are similar to those about Farage being xenophobic. I don't believe either man actually holds those views. They're simply opposed to Zionism and pan-European Government respectively. However, nor is either man afraid to ramp up the rhetoric in a way that probably gets some unsavoury characters rather exercised.

Worth a watch if anyone is interested. Last third of the show.
 

rudebwoyben

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#26
I know it's not a biggie for many people, Jew goals, being "jewed" or "turked" with your change by the cashier or what have you, but I do see it as casual anti-Semitism/racism and would not willingly deal with anyone who used those words. There was a section on this on the Today programme this morning, same chap mentioning that he'd been attacked multiple times for being (appearing, I guess) Jewish, and seeing that crazed person with "Kill All Jews" printed on the back of his football shirt. I don't think there are comparative statistics on race- or ethnicity-specific racist incidents with population figures to weigh against them but I believe overall it's part of the all-round racism that still exists in society. I'm not really qualified to comment beyond that.
It is casual anti-Semitism, no doubt about it. It's part of the casual anti-Semitism that used to bar Jews from becoming members of golf clubs in North London until the 60s (the one good thing Shirley Porter did was uncover this sort of casual anti-Semitism in the 1960s). You see similar manifestations against other minorities as well, including gay people.
I think your approach is the right one, people have to learn that it's not acceptable behaviour in our society.
 
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#27
Did anyone see Question Time last night? Came from Finchley and had George Galloway on the panel. It got extremely heated.

Worth a watch if anyone is interested. Last third of the show.
I watched it, I've never been so angry watching Question Time. The audience were embarrassing, no other politician would get spoken to like that, it wouldn't be allowed. It's one thing having a reasoned debate it's another thing just shouting as loud as you can to get your point across. The other four people on the panel were just as bad as well but it's like that most weeks. Tristram Hunt is up there with Nick Clegg as one of the people I dislike most in politics.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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#28
I don't think there's anything more infuriating in modern politics than the way cries of [insert word for a bigot] is used as a silencing tactic. It's so cynical and infantile. And then the same people turn around and complain that we can't have a sane discussion about multiculturalism/immigration/the EU. Well maybe we could if frank and open discourse was actually encouraged, let alone tolerated.
 

Ebeneezer Goode

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#30
Fair point, they very rarely have questions about immigration on Question Time. Newspapers barely ever mention it either.
You misunderstand. My point is not that we don't talk about these issues, my point is that we can't talk about them sensibly without one side screaming xenophobia as if that is some sort of counter-argument. As if the best way to resolve our issues is to characterize one side as racists so that they shut up and we don't have to listen to them. It's a tactic that is wearing thin.
 

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