Safe Standing

Frealaf

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Cardsfan

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#2
Good on ya, could act as a good example for Championship/Prem clubs in the future.
 

Greenacres

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#3
It works in Germany, where some grounds have far greater attendances than the majority here, so why shouldn't it work in England?
 

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#5
You can safe stand in seated areas? I've not really looked into the whole safe standing thing in too much details, but what's the difference?
 

The Cards

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I understand the motive but I dont see the point of a conference/league 2 club doing it. The point of it in Germany is because in europe they cant have terraces, so put in fold up seats for those games only. I expect this area for grimsby everyone will be standing anyway, it wont be half and half. Why not just put a normal terrace there? Seems like a waste of money to me
 

Frealaf

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You can safe stand in seated areas? I've not really looked into the whole safe standing thing in too much details, but what's the difference?
FL ground regulations state that persistent standing in seated areas is not allowed.

As for what safe standing is I do not know much either other than its used in Germany, presumably fans prefer it as it allows you to create a better atmosphere when standing rather than sitting.

Anyway here's a link to the FSF campaign on safe standing http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/
 

Frealaf

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I understand the motive but I dont see the point of a conference/league 2 club doing it. The point of it in Germany is because in europe they cant have terraces, so put in fold up seats for those games only. I expect this area for grimsby everyone will be standing anyway, it wont be half and half. Why not just put a normal terrace there? Seems like a waste of money to me
A club official has stated that if we put a normal terrace in we would have to revert back to all seating if we got promoted, however we can trial safe standing if we got promoted. No idea how true but presumably they have done their research on it, or maybe that is only if we do part of the stand as they are currently planning on.
 

The Cards

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A club official has stated that if we put a normal terrace in we would have to revert back to all seating if we got promoted, however we can trial safe standing if we got promoted. No idea how true but presumably they have done their research on it, or maybe that is only if we do part of the stand as they are currently planning on.
Brentford? Peterborough? AFC Wimbledon? Carlisle? All have terraces, maybe its something to do with your ground, im not sure
 

Frealaf

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Brentford? Peterborough? AFC Wimbledon? Carlisle? All have terraces, maybe its something to do with your ground, im not sure
Aye, or maybe its something to do with it already being all seater and not being allowed to revert back, or that we are only planning to do part of the stand to safe standing not all of it.
 

Modernist

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#13
If they got up to the championship they would need an all seater stadium, this might mean they could keep the safe standing as long as they had the seats bolted down, whether the club/council force fans to sit in those areas is another matter.
 

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#14
My understanding of the system in Germany is that you buy a ticket for a game but in a safe standing area there is a place for you to stand, that is defined, so in effect rather than having an identifiable seat you have a marked out piece of concrete. There are barriers in front of each row so you don't get the crowd surges that often happened on normal terraces and no chance of the sorts of horrors that occurred in places like Hillsborough or the Heysel.

I can understand the opposition from some fans, particularly those who follow Liverpool, but it is my opinion that the system operated in places like Germany is totally safe and probably far more so than people standing in seated areas.
 

les.gtfc

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#15
If they got up to the championship they would need an all seater stadium, this might mean they could keep the safe standing as long as they had the seats bolted down, whether the club/council force fans to sit in those areas is another matter.
That's the reason we have an all-seater stadium in the first place as we were in the 2nd tier when the ruling came in that all grounds in the top 2 tiers had to be all-seater.

The reason we cannot re-introduce normal terrace standing again is that the law does not allow seats to be removed for a normal standing terrace, only for a safe standing area. Seems a bit daft to me but that's the law apparently.
 

F Side Rat

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#16
Essentially correct Greenacres, that is what is termed as 'safe standing' and can be seen in places like Hannover and Bremen.
However, there are also full blow terraces in Germany, exactly as we used to know them, and can be seen at places like Moenchengladbach, Koln and Frankfurt.
In the former, clubs need not do anything for European games, as there is a ticket for a specific place and there is technically a seat there...although don't try and sit on them!
The latter, the clubs need to put seats down on the terraces. If you go to Borussia Park, behind the main (west stand) you will see the seats in the corner of the car park!
Here are the 'safe standing' or 'rail seats' in Hannover....http://phildanmatt.weebly.com/hannover.html (towards the bottom).
Here is the famous Nord Kurve at Borussia Park......http://phildanmatt.weebly.com/bmg-v-werder.html (in the first picture you can see the seats in the car park) and here it is with its seats in http://phildanmatt.weebly.com/bmg-europa-league.html (5th pic best shows it).

So what of the most famous terrace of all. Well it is interesting to not that the South terrace at the Westfaliastadion in Dortmund is in fact split in two, the bottom half is a full blown terrace, the top half safe standing......afraid I have no pics of it empty as everytime I go I am always late!!
What is interesting to note regarding UEFA is that PEC Zwolle actually used their (albeit small) terrace in Europe this year...to no comment or anything from UEFA/media. Mind the Belgians still allow beer in the stadiums for European games.
 

Luke Imp

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#17
FL ground regulations state that persistent standing in seated areas is not allowed.

As for what safe standing is I do not know much either other than its used in Germany, presumably fans prefer it as it allows you to create a better atmosphere when standing rather than sitting.

Anyway here's a link to the FSF campaign on safe standing http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/
It's not allowed, but it happens and very rare anything is done about it. Every Stadium will have people stood up towards the back.

At SB, when we were getting 5k crowds the back 3 row of the Co-op Stand were all stood up. It's just an unwritten rule that people can stand as long as they're not blocking anyone else's view.

A club official has stated that if we put a normal terrace in we would have to revert back to all seating if we got promoted, however we can trial safe standing if we got promoted. No idea how true but presumably they have done their research on it, or maybe that is only if we do part of the stand as they are currently planning on.
Yeah, I think it's to do with how the Stadium is registered.

From a cost perspective, our SW used to be terracing and then changed to seating (in the late 90's, Imps?) and feelers were put out to change it back to terracing but that was 6 or 7 years ago and was going to cost £35k+. Probably more than that now.
 

Aber gas

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#18
This is good longterm thinking from Grimsby . Stealing a March on legislation shows your board is thinking ahead .
 

Greenacres

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#19
Mind the Belgians still allow beer in the stadiums for European games.
I have been to a few games in Belgium, though admittedly not that recently, and at one stadium they opened the gates at half time so the home fans could leg it over the road to a pub for a drink as the bars in the ground couldn't satisfy demand. I don't know whether this says that the club were confident that everyone would return for the second half or that the Belgians can't endure a whole ninety minutes without alcohol.
 
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#21
I have been to a few games in Belgium, though admittedly not that recently, and at one stadium they opened the gates at half time so the home fans could leg it over the road to a pub for a drink as the bars in the ground couldn't satisfy demand. I don't know whether this says that the club were confident that everyone would return for the second half or that the Belgians can't endure a whole ninety minutes without alcohol.
At Maidenhead there's a group of lads who nip out for a McDonalds at half-time as it's so close to the town centre.
 

Greenacres

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#22
Think you might be right there, chuck in mussels and chips and they would be in heaven. From memory the game was Sint Truiden versus KV Mechelen, which was a top division game at the time...have to say that I don't remember much about the football, blame it on the Leffe!
 

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#23
According to the BBC article on it, Grimsby would have to go back to all seater, if they made it to the league, because they've spent more than 3 consecutive years in the second tier.

Which is the grace period for any club after being promoted to the second tier to convert to all seater.
 

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#24
According to the BBC article on it, Grimsby would have to go back to all seater, if they made it to the league, because they've spent more than 3 consecutive years in the second tier.

Which is the grace period for any club after being promoted to the second tier to convert to all seater.
Crazy innit?
 

Meadow

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#26
You can safe stand in seated areas? I've not really looked into the whole safe standing thing in too much details, but what's the difference?
Rail seats have a much higher back than normal seats so the liklihood of people toppling over them is very small.

Standing in seated areas isn't really safe which is why so many clubs insist on people sitting.
 

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#27
According to the BBC article on it, Grimsby would have to go back to all seater, if they made it to the league, because they've spent more than 3 consecutive years in the second tier.

Which is the grace period for any club after being promoted to the second tier to convert to all seater.
I would have thought that that would have only applied in the instance that Grimsby were vying for promotion to the 2nd tier again?
 

Jemfy

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#28
Overall as for the "rail seats" I don't like them. I think there are a bunch of practical issues, such as if you have to stand in your allocated area then you are screwed if some 6'4" guy comes and stands in front of you.

One of the key things that allows a terrace to create more atmosphere is the freedom to move around so that the loud people can make a group together. Allocated seating prevents it for obvious reasons, but unallocated seating is still a hindrance due to the fact that if others sit before the loud people arrive they have to split or move etc. And they will often arrive later having been to a pub.

Don't get me wrong, rail seats are a better option than no standing, but a good terrace is better IMO. If you are worried about crushes and surges smaller numbers of steps between rails is always possible, and if you're worried about numbers sections could be operated independently if you really wanted. There are ways to do it.
 

Modernist

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#29
Overall as for the "rail seats" I don't like them. I think there are a bunch of practical issues, such as if you have to stand in your allocated area then you are screwed if some 6'4" guy comes and stands in front of you.

One of the key things that allows a terrace to create more atmosphere is the freedom to move around so that the loud people can make a group together. Allocated seating prevents it for obvious reasons, but unallocated seating is still a hindrance due to the fact that if others sit before the loud people arrive they have to split or move etc. And they will often arrive later having been to a pub.

Don't get me wrong, rail seats are a better option than no standing, but a good terrace is better IMO. If you are worried about crushes and surges smaller numbers of steps between rails is always possible, and if you're worried about numbers sections could be operated independently if you really wanted. There are ways to do it.
why are you screwed? You realise these rail seats would be tiered?

Not sure you second points that relevant either as most singers would go to the standing areas whilst those who don't want to would choose seats.

And yes terraces are better but they will never come back so rail seats are the only option.
 

Jemfy

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#30
why are you screwed? You realise these rail seats would be tiered?

Not sure you second points that relevant either as most singers would go to the standing areas whilst those who don't want to would choose seats.

And yes terraces are better but they will never come back so rail seats are the only option.
It's about the height differential relative to the step size. In a regular terrace you would be able to move to overcome the problem, or easily ask the taller person to switch places. With a barrier at every row and an allocated position within the row, it's a lot harder! Imagine for instance a 5'6" person (pretty average height for a woman) stood behind a 6'4" guy. You would then need an inclination of about 1ft between steps (due to eye height and angulation to the pitch) in order to be able to see anything! In the case of 5'6" and 6'0" (as a pretty average height for a man) you'd need at least 8" steps. I'm pretty sure that needing to be 2" above the person in front is an underestimate, but just a number I decided to work with to prove the point.

It depends on the proportion of your crowd who prefer to stand are singers. Some people prefer to stand but don't actively generate too much noise. Again allocated positions means that unless the singers that know each other organise to stand in the same areas, then they are split. It's these pockets which start songs off normally.

Terraces with say 4 or 5 levels between barriers are quite feasible and safe IMO. Maybe you could allocate which terrace section people are in rather than their particular location in it if you needed to work around over-crowding/surging issues.

Don't forget terraces in and of themselves aren't really unsafe. In every incident I am aware of there have been significant other issues which have caused harm.
 

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