West London towerblock Fire

[PuB]

Looks absolutely horrendous on the news this morning. I hope the majority of people got out quickly, but according to some witness reports on the BBC they may not have done. Horrific.

 

[Abertawe]

Words can't do it justice. Horrible.

 

[claret50]

The BBC have just reported that some residents are still inside the building.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

This blog is worth a read - repeatedly predicted something like this
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-fire/

only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

 

[Leo]

There have been reports of 'a number of fatalities'. Unimaginable being caught up in something like that. I realise that a lot of people have no option but I would totally detest having to live in one of these buildings.

 

[Super_horns]

Sadly I don't think this is the first time something like this has happened.

Some of those flat towers are very old and run down.

A real tragedy.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Horrendous. The stuff of nightmares.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Sadly I don't think this is the first time something like this has happened.

Some of those flat towers are very old and run down.

A real tragedy.

Greenfell had been recently refurbished. Residents have suggested that the cladding contributed to the spread of the fire.

The company responsible for the refurb, Rydon, have scrubbed all references to it from their website.

 

[Dave]

Greenfell had been recently refurbished. Residents have suggested that the cladding contributed to the spread of the fire.

The company responsible for the refurb, Rydon, have scrubbed all references to it from their website.

http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/r...ies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower

 

[AFCB_Mark]

From what they're saying on bbc radio, the only way some residents knew there was a problem was due to other residents banging on their doors. Suggests some issue with the fire alarm, perhaps not being audible in all parts of the building.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

From what they're saying on bbc radio, the only way some residents knew there was a problem was due to other residents banging on their doors. Suggests some issue with the fire alarm, perhaps not being audible in all parts of the building.

Lots of these buildings employ "stay put" policies in event of fire. The idea is that unless there's a fire on your floor, you're better off staying put and closing your doors and windows and relying on the fire not spreading, than by trying to evacuate.

Problem is, that relies on the fire not spreading. In Lakanal House in Southwark, six people died in a fire in 2009 due to following this advice.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...fety-failings-tower-block-lakanal-house-blaze
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/28/lakanal-house-fire-deaths-prevented

 

[Son of Cod]

Lots of these buildings employ "stay put" policies in event of fire. The idea is that unless there's a fire on your floor, you're better off staying put and closing your doors and windows and relying on the fire not spreading, than by trying to evacuate.

Problem is, that relies on the fire not spreading. In Lakanal House in Southwark, six people died in a fire in 2009 due to following this advice.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...fety-failings-tower-block-lakanal-house-blaze
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/28/lakanal-house-fire-deaths-prevented

I think way more people have died here. Reports of alarms allegedly not sounding, torches being flashed out of top windows, people dropping children out of windows, etc. What the fuck do you do if you're on the 17th floor and the fire has blazed all the way up from the 4th floor? Jump or burn alive? Hellish situation. I find this way more disturbing and unsettling than the recent terror attacks.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I think way more people have died here. Reports of alarms allegedly not sounding, torches being flashed out of top windows, people dropping children out of windows, etc. What the fuck do you do if you're on the 17th floor and the fire has blazed all the way up from the 4th floor? Jump or burn alive? Hellish situation. I find this way more disturbing and unsettling than the recent terror attacks.

It sounds like it, though I hope not. It was lucky that this happened during Ramadan - as many residents of the building were up and awake, and able to warn each other - it could have been much worse.

 

[silkyman]

Lots of these buildings employ "stay put" policies in event of fire. The idea is that unless there's a fire on your floor, you're better off staying put and closing your doors and windows and relying on the fire not spreading, than by trying to evacuate.

Problem is, that relies on the fire not spreading. In Lakanal House in Southwark, six people died in a fire in 2009 due to following this advice.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...fety-failings-tower-block-lakanal-house-blaze
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/28/lakanal-house-fire-deaths-prevented

BBC just reported that there was a Stay Put policy in this building. They had a picture of one of the signs in the building telling people to do just that.

 

[silkyman]

And just reported eyewitness account that a woman on the ninth floor dropped her baby out of the window in the hope that someone on the ground would catch it. I don't want to believe that's true, because the thought of knowing that throwing your child out of a window is the best course of action is just horrendous.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

A lot of tower blocks do not have a communal fire alarm system installed, but smoke alarms in individual flats, by which time if it does spread, is too late by the time each invidivual smoke alarm picks it up and getting down the stairs to the bottom floor is blocked by fire (often only one stair well) so these people are often trapped and unable to escape.

Really they need to have one common system throughout these blocks installed to avoid loss of life

 

[HertsWolf]

Sickening scenes from London. Thoughts with the victims, their families, emergency services.

 

[Renegade]

My mate in London says the flat blocks he's lived in have never had communal fire alarms - is this common across the city? Even the five story building he lived in last year did not have a communal fire alarm system. I can see why the massive flat blocks do not have such a system - a false alarm for someone burning some sausages might leads to evacuation of hundreds of residents and this could lead to panic, trampling and injury. That such a system isn't in place for small flat blocks seems insane to me. Communal fire alarms are the norm for such places here.

Are communal fire alarm systems sophisticated enough to differentiate between minor fires and fires that have spread beyond one room or one flat?

London is having a horrible time at the moment, I really don't see how close to 100 people haven't been killed in this fire, sincerely hope I'm wrong. Imagine the person that may have started this fire, they likely will have escaped alive, but may have to live with this for the rest of their life.



EDIT: OK, 100 people may have been a wild miscalculation. Still horrendous.

 

[silkyman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357#ICID=sharebar_twitter

 

[Leo]

Don't want to sound naive but do these kind of premises not have sprinkler systems installed. Don't if something like that would have done any good but 'may' have assisted initially?

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Don't want to sound naive but do these kind of premises not have sprinkler systems installed. Don't if something like that would have done any good but 'may' have assisted initially?

It's a requirement for new tower blocks have to have sprinkler systems installed. It's not a requirement for refurbished tower blocks to have sprinkler systems though.

 

[mowgli]

I know that tower block as i used to drink in a blues pub The Station Tavern in Latimer Road and used to pop out during the bands break to have a sneaky spliff near the block. One bloke being intervkiewed on The BBCsaid it was caused by a fridge fire on the 4th floor. Latest i saw was over 50 taken to hospital and 6 dead but that is likely to rise. My heart goes out to all those affected in this horrible tragedy.

 

[Son of Cod]

Are communal fire alarm systems sophisticated enough to differentiate between minor fires and fires that have spread beyond one room or one flat?

Yes they are but like most big cities, London is rife with shoddy building owners/developers looking to cut as many corner as possible to maximise profits. The thing that astounds me about this is that this building had an £8m+ refurb last year and it has proven to be so hazardous. Will be interesting to see what happens to Rydon.

 

[Leo]

It's a requirement for new tower blocks have to have sprinkler systems installed. It's not a requirement for refurbished tower blocks to have sprinkler systems though.

Quite astounding imo and a big big safety concern amongst other aspects.

 

[Stringy]

I think people will go to prison for this. Hopefully it's followed by reform.

 

[Aber gas]

Any London peeps.
https://twitter.com/unitecommcam/status/874937402233696256
Anyone else, there is a just giving page on the thread.
Toys needed ffs.

 

[Andrew_W]

Nice gesture from Jamie Oliver

 

[Cornish Piskie]

BBC Six O Clock News is reporting that emergency services have now been able to carry out a search up to the top floor and no survivors have been found.

This is a dreadful scenario and the investigation will take some time before the full facts are known. Of course, there will be all sorts of speculation in the news media, some of it reliably informed, some of it less so. We should be wary of putting too much faith in hastily contrived news stories.

Going into any incident scene is always a delicate process which has to be carried out methodically and carefully. Firstly, it will be necessary to secure the site, control access to only those with a proper reason for being there.and ensure that any areas entered have been certified as safe before anybody can go in. The press are sometimes a problem in this regard, but usually it's the gawpers who unthinkingly want to get too close to the spectacle.... and even worse than that are the souvenir hunters who can do a great deal of damage to a delicate site because they want a selfie or some ghoulish memento. This sort of thing really does happen..!!

Forensics teams will first try to establish the point at where the fire started, then establish its cause and then try to find out how it managed to spread. As each stage of the initial investigation progresses, it will be necessary to remove human remains, which is always distressing for investigators, no matter how many times you do it.

All evidence which can be gathered will be collected, collated, examined, analysed and the findings documented. There will inevitably be an inquiry which will establish the facts and - if anybody was culpable - establish who.

In the final analysis, recommendations will be made and hopefully, lessons learned. Scant comfort to those who have lost loved ones in this sad incident. My heart goes out to them.

OK.... that's the professional in me speaking at a very basic level. If anybody has any questions I'll answer them as best I can in a general sense. Obviously every incident scene is different.

As a human being, I let my emotions speak. I get angry that every time something like this happens the usual mantra of "We must make sure this never happens again" is trotted out and I'm sure at some point it will be used in relation to this tragedy. That is usually just an empty, worthless platitude. Real action MUST be taken. That's what we want to see.

The response of the local community has been magnificent. People are pouring out into the streets to help as best they can. Community centres are acting as emergency shelters. Neighbours are contributing clothing, bedding and food. Some are opening up their houses to give shelter to people who have lost their homes. The best of humanity in the worst of circumstances.

I would call upon the local council, or central government to make resources available to - at the very least - provide bed and breakfast accommodation for everybody who has lost their home. In the longer term these people should take priority for re-housing as quickly as possible. The public will open their hearts and their doors in the immediate aftermath, but they shouldn't have to do so for any longer than it takes for public services to kick into gear.

 

[Jockney]

My mate in London says the flat blocks he's lived in have never had communal fire alarms - is this common across the city? Even the five story building he lived in last year did not have a communal fire alarm system. I can see why the massive flat blocks do not have such a system - a false alarm for someone burning some sausages might leads to evacuation of hundreds of residents and this could lead to panic, trampling and injury. That such a system isn't in place for small flat blocks seems insane to me. Communal fire alarms are the norm for such places here.

Are communal fire alarm systems sophisticated enough to differentiate between minor fires and fires that have spread beyond one room or one flat?

London is having a horrible time at the moment, I really don't see how close to 100 people haven't been killed in this fire, sincerely hope I'm wrong. Imagine the person that may have started this fire, they likely will have escaped alive, but may have to live with this for the rest of their life.



EDIT: OK, 100 people may have been a wild miscalculation. Still horrendous.

We have a communal fire alarm. It's loud, goes off very easily and triggers all of the other alarms in the building, too. We also have heavy fire doors.

It is annoying, but I am ultimately glad for it.

 

[Abertawe]

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-safe-last-year-conservatives-rejected/14/06/