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Anti Vaxxers.

silkyman

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This is something that's been rearing it's head again with this new film and Robert De Nero's reactions.

Why people listen to celebrities for medical advice is beyond me, but they are still out there.
 
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I'd advocate giving all anti-vaxxers smallpox, the ones who survive can give their opinions as to whether they're a good thing or not.
 

silkyman

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Either that or jail for child neglect...
 

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Imagine a world where Silkyman gets to make any kind of meaningful decision.

*Shudders*
 

Aber gas

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I believe people have, and are trying to educate. It's like trying to educate a racist that black people are not below them.
So we keep educating. What we shouldn't do is demonise and advocate inprisonment for people who are sometimes traumatised by previous experiences with mass vaccination ( however misguided that might be). Some parents are genuinely concerned by the links ( unfounded imho) between some vaccines and several disorders both mental and physical. Slamming them as stupid and shutting down debate by completely disregarding their views and concerns isn't helpful.
 
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There is one (perhaps two) papers or so linking vaccinations with autism, there are hundreds, if not thousands, disproving that. What more education do these people need?
 
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Aber gas

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There is one (perhaps two) papers or so linking vaccinations with autism, there are hundreds, if not thousands, disproving that. What more education do these people need?
So we keep the debate open and point that out. Making judgements on parents who opt out of vaccination without knowing the motivations is wrong imo. I'll give you an example which is in no way representative but might make my point clearer.
My wife works in child protection and has worked with a mother who's elder child is autistic, she believes that this is linked to vaccination so is reluctant to allow the vaccination of her younger children. It's a difficult situation and she isn't in a position to research it properly so her view comes from a position of fear. Castigating and inprisoning people in this position isn't helpful.
 

silkyman

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Or maybe we educate and try to understand some parents genuinely held reservations.

It's been thoroughly debunked for more than a decade. The study was fraudulent and Wakefield was struck off. It shouldn't even be a thing anymore. Education is important, and I was employing hyperbole about jailing them, but file it alongside Jehova's Witnesses who refuse treatment for their kids, with the added element of not vaccinating putting other, vulnerable members of society at risk.

Imagine an infant child dying due to some people preferring to believe Jenny McCarthy over the scientific and medical community?

Wakefield was a fraud who had a huge potential financial reward in 'proving' a link between MMR and autism.
 
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So we keep the debate open and point that out. Making judgements on parents who opt out of vaccination without knowing the motivations is wrong imo. I'll give you an example which is in no way representative but might make my point clearer.
My wife works in child protection and has worked with a mother who's elder child is autistic, she believes that this is linked to vaccination so is reluctant to allow the vaccination of her younger children. It's a difficult situation and she isn't in a position to research it properly so her view comes from a position of fear. Castigating and inprisoning people in this position isn't helpful.

That is fine, but I must point out that you essentially just proved my point. She isn't in a position to research it properly? Pop on the internet for all of 10 minutes and there is the research. Now yes, she may not have internet at home (though if that were the case I'd seriously question how she came to this conclusion), but internet is free in libraries around the country, so it isn't that difficult to research. I personally would be in favour of making it law that children should be vaccinated for the safety of anyone else who happens to come into contact with them. There have recently been outbreaks of diseases (mainly measles) that have more or less been eliminated due to these people refusing to vaccinate their offspring. Thankfully, as far as I'm aware, no one has died yet, however this is a reality that we are facing. If people keep refusing to vaccinate their children, eventually there are going to be deaths, and unfortunately that will most likely mean children dying due to their parent's ridiculous beliefs that vaccinations are linked to autism.

I see where you are coming from, as generally I am an education first kind of person, however in this case, a case that can, and will if this continues, affect the welfare of the whole human race, as well as potentially my own children one day (if I decide to have them), I must make this point quite strongly. For me it is akin to people deciding that they no longer need to wash their hands due to some global soap conspiracy. It is an utterly ridiculous notion, of course, but it is quite a similar case. Something that would lead to unnecessary suffering, and eventually deaths.
 

Aber gas

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It's been thoroughly debunked for more than a decade. The study was fraudulent and Wakefield was struck off. It shouldn't even be a thing anymore. Education is important, and I was employing hyperbole about jailing them, but file it alongside Jehova's Witnesses who refuse treatment for their kids, with the added element of not vaccinating putting other, vulnerable members of society at risk.

Imagine an infant child dying due to some people preferring to believe Jenny McCarthy over the scientific and medical community?

Wakefield was a fraud who had a huge potential financial reward in 'proving' a link between MMR and autism.
I don't disagree with your view of vaccination, my children are vaccinated and I view it as a positive thing. What I dislike is your damning and disregarding of parents who have genuine fears( however misguided) I also agree that the intervention of celebrity "experts " isn't helpful
 

blade1889

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Some parents are genuinely concerned by the links ( unfounded imho) between some vaccines and several disorders both mental and physical. .

Its not an opinion, its a fact.

Interesting report on the psychology behind some anti-vaxxers

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/facts-dont-matter-to-anti-vaxxers.html?mid=fb-share-thecut

Worrying conclusions that educating them seems to have the opposite effect!

As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't vaccinate their child who later contracts a preventable disease it's child-neglect and should be treated as such. And that's just focusing on that child as opposed to the herd immunity these people are damaging.
 

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Aber gas

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That is fine, but I must point out that you essentially just proved my point. She isn't in a position to research it properly? Pop on the internet for all of 10 minutes and there is the research. Now yes, she may not have internet at home (though if that were the case I'd seriously question how she came to this conclusion), but internet is free in libraries around the country, so it isn't that difficult to research. I personally would be in favour of making it law that children should be vaccinated for the safety of anyone else who happens to come into contact with them. There have recently been outbreaks of diseases (mainly measles) that have more or less been eliminated due to these people refusing to vaccinate their offspring. Thankfully, as far as I'm aware, no one has died yet, however this is a reality that we are facing. If people keep refusing to vaccinate their children, eventually there are going to be deaths, and unfortunately that will most likely mean children dying due to their parent's ridiculous beliefs that vaccinations are linked to autism.

I see where you are coming from, as generally I am an education first kind of person, however in this case, a case that can, and will if this continues, affect the welfare of the whole human race, as well as potentially my own children one day (if I decide to have them), I must make this point quite strongly. For me it is akin to people deciding that they no longer need to wash their hands due to some global soap conspiracy. It is an utterly ridiculous notion, of course, but it is quite a similar case. Something that would lead to unnecessary suffering, and eventually deaths.
It's not about practicalities in regards to research, it's about about researching from a position of ( understandable ) fear. It's incredibly arrogant that you assume everybody can view this issue with the same objectivity as you. For someone who is genuinely frightened dismissing their fears as ridiculous is counterproductive.
 
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It's not about practicalities in regards to research, it's about about researching from a position of ( understandable ) fear. It's incredibly arrogant that you assume everybody can view this issue with the same objectivity as you. For someone who is genuinely frightened dismissing their fears as ridiculous is counterproductive.

Understandable fear based on what??? This is the point I am trying to make, Aber. There is no understanding in a fear of a lifesaving vaccination. These people are ruining herd immunity and putting people around the world at risk. I don't wish to demonise people, but this is absolutely ridiculous. I am not saying that people should view it as objectively as myself, I am just saying that perhaps they should actually research a bit, find that the studies 'proving' this completely unfounded piece of crap are outnumbered 1000/1. It does not take long. For christ's sake, I could probably find something that stated that the sky is categorically a rather light shade of pink rather than blue and choose to believe that over looking up! It would not make it an understandable thing for me to think that the sky is bloody pink.

These people are genuinely more ridiculous that the flat Earth lot. There is actually more 'evidence' for the Earth being flat than there is for vaccinations potentially causing autism, yet I'd be willing to bet that if I were to try and convince you that the Earth was flat, I'd be met with derision from the rest of the forum, including yourself, and rightfully so, as I would have to be an absolute moron to believe that!
 

Aber gas

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Its not an opinion, its a fact.

Interesting report on the psychology behind some anti-vaxxers

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/facts-dont-matter-to-anti-vaxxers.html?mid=fb-share-thecut

Worrying conclusions that educating them seems to have the opposite effect!

As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't vaccinate their child who later contracts a preventable disease it's child-neglect and should be treated as such. And that's just focusing on that child as opposed to the herd immunity these people are damaging.
Don't make me link some anti vax " science " just to make a point blades :lol:
 

Aber gas

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Understandable fear based on what??? This is the point I am trying to make, Aber. There is no understanding in a fear of a lifesaving vaccination. These people are ruining herd immunity and putting people around the world at risk. I don't wish to demonise people, but this is absolutely ridiculous. I am not saying that people should view it as objectively as myself, I am just saying that perhaps they should actually research a bit, find that the studies 'proving' this completely unfounded piece of crap are outnumbered 1000/1. It does not take long. For christ's sake, I could probably find something that stated that the sky is categorically a rather light shade of pink rather than blue and choose to believe that over looking up! It would not make it an understandable thing for me to think that the sky is bloody pink.

These people are genuinely more ridiculous that the flat Earth lot. There is actually more 'evidence' for the Earth being flat than there is for vaccinations potentially causing autism, yet I'd be willing to bet that if I were to try and convince you that the Earth was flat, I'd be met with derision from the rest of the forum, including yourself, and rightfully so, as I would have to be an absolute moron to believe that!
You know this as do I but you're completely missing my point. When people are scared it becomes emotive so people will find the "research" that stokes their fears. The flat earth comparison is fairly disingenuous and not particularly relevant. Dismissing scared and confused people as morons doesn't strike me as an effective way to promote vaccination tbh. If anything I'd imagine that would be counterproductive.
 

blade1889

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To be fair I do think that we do have a problem with educating and publicising science. Its something that is recognised institutionally and a lot of focus now comes into communicating science at University, its absolutely vital we communicate what we learn in a way everyone understands and its something I'm personally trying to work on as much as possible. It's easy when we have science nerds talking about science to end up in some technical jargon and you just lose your audience straight off.

That being said there has been so much focus on vaccines I dont know what we can do better. A quick google throws up countless results written for lay people and scientists for why vaccines do not cause autism and why they are vital. If someone goes to their doctor's they will talk to them face to fave and explain any issues and concerns a person has. I find it hard to get into the mindset of someone who (regardless of their own experiences) still insists that vaccines are harmful after all this. Take your concerned mother above G, she has access to a doctor to explain about vaccines, the internet to do 'research' that is aimed at all audiences yet she stil doesn't want to get he child vaccinated, where do we go from there?
 

Aber gas

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To be fair I do think that we do have a problem with educating and publicising science. Its something that is recognised institutionally and a lot of focus now comes into communicating science at University, its absolutely vital we communicate what we learn in a way everyone understands and its something I'm personally trying to work on as much as possible. It's easy when we have science nerds talking about science to end up in some technical jargon and you just lose your audience straight off.

That being said there has been so much focus on vaccines I dont know what we can do better. A quick google throws up countless results written for lay people and scientists for why vaccines do not cause autism and why they are vital. If someone goes to their doctor's they will talk to them face to fave and explain any issues and concerns a person has. I find it hard to get into the mindset of someone who (regardless of their own experiences) still insists that vaccines are harmful after all this. Take your concerned mother above G, she has access to a doctor to explain about vaccines, the internet to do 'research' that is aimed at all audiences yet she stil doesn't want to get he child vaccinated, where do we go from there?
We or rather people are trained to do it explain in a non judgemental way that vaccination is the best way forward. Through building trust and creating a positive relationship the message gets through. Understanding people's fears and reassuring them through support is far more effective than labelling them as morons and castigating them for neglect.
 

blade1889

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We or rather people are trained to do it explain in a non judgemental way that vaccination is the best way forward. Through building trust and creating a positive relationship the message gets through. Understanding people's fears and reassuring them through support is far more effective than labelling them as morons and castigating them for neglect.

Have you not just described a local GP or nurse? People that everyone in this country has access to, especially surrounding getting a child vaccinated. Theres only so far I think you can go before people do need to start being punished for appalling life choices.

Theres probably more research showing that seat belts are harmful. But if someone gets into a car accident and their child dies or gets seriously injured because they weren't wearing a seat belt, that's child neglect and needs to be treated as such (and I think people are punished for not wearing seat belts?). They've had all the information on why seat belts must be worn but they've still gone against it.

I'm not going to lambast someone for being concerned about vaccines. I'm going to lambast someone for having access to why those concerns are unfounded...and still deciding they know best.
 

silkyman

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At some point though, you have to draw a line. Despite this being proven as utter bullshit 10 years ago. Despite every doctor in the world knowing that. Despite it being very easy indeed to discover this online, people still refuse to believe it. And in the most part that is because of fucking celebrities.

When you reach a certain level of stupid. Especially when that stupid is a danger to your kids and other vulnerable people who aren't you, then other people need to act.

If someone faked a scientific paper (and the Wakefield research WAS faked with a view to benefitting from it financially) that the radioactive element in smoke detectors was linked to cancer, then would it be ok or understandable for landlords to refuse to provide them?
 

silkyman

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Have you not just described a local GP or nurse? People that everyone in this country has access to, especially surrounding getting a child vaccinated. Theres only so far I think you can go before people do need to start being punished for appalling life choices.

Theres probably more research showing that seat belts are harmful. But if someone gets into a car accident and their child dies or gets seriously injured because they weren't wearing a seat belt, that's child neglect and needs to be treated as such (and I think people are punished for not wearing seat belts?). They've had all the information on why seat belts must be worn but they've still gone against it.

When our daughter was born we had several pre natal doctor visits and scans and had a health visitor come to us at home three or four times after she was born. There is no reason why this person, who was the same midwife from start to finish and therefore fully able to build trust, couldn't raise and discuss the issue.
 
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You know this as do I but you're completely missing my point. When people are scared it becomes emotive so people will find the "research" that stokes their fears. The flat earth comparison is fairly disingenuous and not particularly relevant. Dismissing scared and confused people as morons doesn't strike me as an effective way to promote vaccination tbh. If anything I'd imagine that would be counterproductive.

Absolutely, but as others in this thread have pointed out, mostly Blade, it is not difficult to get many areas of research, and is akin to not wearinga seatbelt. Well if you don't crash, you're fine, if you don't get the diseases that you weren't vaccinated against it's fine. But what if you do crash? What if you do get the disease? You're screwed. This decision should be taken away from parents who are not willing to go with it in my humble opinion, due to the harm it can do, not only to their own children, but to other people. The other people affected by this are most likely also going to be children, as their immune system's are not fully developed yet, if an adult got most of these diseases, the likelihood is that they'll be fine, the same cannot be said of a child.

It is akin to not wearing a seatbelt. It is akin to Jehovah's Witnesses not allowing treatment. It is akin to putting an advert out asking for a hitman to kill your child. A fair few of them would not die, however the ones that do die could have very easily been prevented.
 
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It is akin to putting an advert out asking for a hitman to kill your child.

I don't think it is.

Even the seatbelt analogy isn't entirely accurate imo. People make kids wear seatbelts because they know it keeps them safe (education). Not because they don't want to get a fine for not doing so (the state making them do it).

If the evidence is there to support your side of the argument, gotta step up the education to a level where vaccines are as much a non-brainer as wearing a seatbelt. And don't be saying it's easy for someone to go to the library to do their own research on vaccinations because honestly who even does that.

Don't take away civil liberties. As folk said earlier in the thread, educate. Educate, educate, and educate until nobody wants to not have their kids vaccinated.

I guess.
 
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And yet people still drive around allowing their children to not wear seatbelts. This is why I used that analogy.
 

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I believe people have, and are trying to educate. It's like trying to educate a racist that black people are not below them.
Are you saying all racist's are white ?
if you weren't 23 i'd report you...............highly offended i am ................highly offended.
 

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Understandable fear based on what??? This is the point I am trying to make, Aber. There is no understanding in a fear of a lifesaving vaccination. These people are ruining herd immunity and putting people around the world at risk. I don't wish to demonise people, but this is absolutely ridiculous. I am not saying that people should view it as objectively as myself, I am just saying that perhaps they should actually research a bit, find that the studies 'proving' this completely unfounded piece of crap are outnumbered 1000/1. It does not take long. For christ's sake, I could probably find something that stated that the sky is categorically a rather light shade of pink rather than blue and choose to believe that over looking up! It would not make it an understandable thing for me to think that the sky is bloody pink.

These people are genuinely more ridiculous that the flat Earth lot. There is actually more 'evidence' for the Earth being flat than there is for vaccinations potentially causing autism, yet I'd be willing to bet that if I were to try and convince you that the Earth was flat, I'd be met with derision from the rest of the forum, including yourself, and rightfully so, as I would have to be an absolute moron to believe that!
where's your research for a globe earth off the internet by yourself i bet?

mega contradiction right there..............if your that interested get in a balloon like i did..........simples.
 

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