The craziest idea ever: 20 clubs and 36 games...

Paul_1984

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An alternative Premier League competitive format with 20 clubs but only 36 games.

I think premier league clubs are losing ground to spanish or german clubs because they have less domestic games.

Premier League with 36 games (however more competitive), and FA CUP without replays could provide the necessary savings.

How this is possible?
Giving up the 10 returning games (home or away) with bottom 10 clubs, allocating this games to top 5 clubs, battling to win league and Champions League berths.
With this bottom 5 also will play 8 games (4 games between them) to determine relegation.
10 Mid-table clubs will play 33 games during regular season and then a play-off between 6 clubs to determine 2 Europe League berths.
Points adds up along season... However clubs can't surpass League Partition Groups.

- "1st phase": all clubs playing each other once, home or away, depending on draw. 19 games
- "2nd phase": Premier League partition in half 10-10: Top 10 and Bottom 10. Playing returning game inside each group. 9 games.
- "3rd phase": Top 10 and Bottom 10 partition in half: Top 5 - Champions Group, Clubs fighting for the title and a champions league spot, Bottom 5 - Relegation Group, playing 8 games inside groups, home and away games (36 games). Remaining 10 clubs - Europe Group- playing returning game, more 5 games (33 games).

Europe League Play-off:
6 clubs from the Group of 10 clubs (mid table clubs) will play each other to determine the remaining 2 Europe League berths.

1st round: 8th VS 11th and 9th VS 10th (home and away)
2nd round: 6th VS TBD and 7th VS TBD (Wembley stadium)

Top 5 nd Bottom 5 clubs will play 4 games between them, 2 home and 2 away games.
 

PaulHaddock

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What if you're 1st and 20 points ahead of 5th and you don't win the mini-league?

I think you're making things massively over complicated when I think the amount of games they're playing isn't the issue really.
 

Paul_1984

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What if you're 1st and 20 points ahead of 5th and you don't win the mini-league?

I think you're making things massively over complicated when I think the amount of games they're playing isn't the issue really.

How?

You don't loose the points gained along the season...

Despite league partitions, this not break league continuity. Each partition do not restart Premier League!
 

PaulHaddock

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That wasn't very clear. Still, doing all this just to play 2 less games doesn't really seem logical.
 

Paul_1984

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It looks, but it's not.

You only abdicated 10 games between bottom 10 clubs in the last quarter of the season. 3/4 remains the same ;)

With this top 5 clubs play each other 4 times, 2 times with another 5 mid-table clubs and 1 time with bottom 10 clubs.
 

1884 Belmont

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Sorry, but that is ludicrous. Premier League squads don't miss out in Europe because they play more games. They miss out because they are, in comparison, not good enough. Liverpool in 2005, United in 2008, Chelsea in 2012 - 3 Champions League wins in the last 11 years (IE over a quarter of all recent CL wins). The fact Leicester won the league this season shows that the 'usual suspects' have just spent a fortune on massively overrated players who were not in the same league as their European counterparts.

What happens when the team who finishes 6th has more points than the side who finishes 5th but cannot go above them?
Or what happens if, for example, Man United play the 3 promoted sides and all of the bottom half of the table from the previous season at home in their first portion of the league, whilst Chelsea play the sides who finished last season 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th, 6th, 7th,... 12th, 13th? (For example). It would benefit those who had easier fixtures towards the start of the season and effectively stop anyone recovering from a bad start.

It's just uncompetitive and unnecessary. Sorry, but it's just an awful 'fix' to a problem that doesn't exist.
 
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Paul_1984

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Barcelona won 4 and Real Madrid 1 during that period. In Europe League Spain 7 titles, England 1.Europpean titles: Spain 11 vs England 5.

Again that's impossible. All clubs play the same clubs. The bottom and top are not defined by previous season. But instead by the the first half of the current season (19 games).

Then if the club who finishes 6th has more points than the club who finishs 5th nothing happens, like in Scottish Premiership. The last break-up is irreversible.
 

AtaturkOzgutson

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Without getting into the details of the proposal itself (which would take a lifetime), this is all based on the pretext that "English clubs are losing ground on Spanish and German clubs", and that it's due to the amount of games played.

That is highly debatable, and at best, is down to performance in Europe. Maybe accepting that the top few clubs in Spain benefit from imbalances of power, and are simply have better teams, would be a start. These things are cyclical and don't require everything to be radically changed at every opportunity.
 

Paul_1984

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I think the imbalance power comes from english clubs having much more money available than almost any other club in Europe.
Do you realize that this season spanish teams were eliminated only because they played against other spanish team?

Could you say something about the thread "proposal"? I would like to read more opinions to understand what is right and what is wrong ;)
 
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1884 Belmont

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Barcelona won 4 and Real Madrid 1 during that period. In Europe League Spain 7 titles, England 1.Europpean titles: Spain 11 vs England 5.

Again that's impossible. All clubs play the same clubs. The bottom and top are not defined by previous season. But instead by the the first half of the current season (19 games).

Then if the club who finishes 6th has more points than the club who finishs 5th nothing happens, like in Scottish Premiership. The last break-up is irreversible.

Europe is made up of more than just Spain and England. Germany, Italy, France, Netherlands, Portugal - all have big, big clubs and the English record stands up against anyone. We had a Europa League finalist and Champions League Semi-finalist just this season (in fact, the only non-Spanish nation to be represented in the CL semi finals). Spain just has the best couple of sides in the world at the minute. But that's all they have - 3 top class sides and then a bunch of sides who are no better than their English counterparts. Liverpool (2005), Arsenal (2006), Man United (2008, 2009, 2011), Chelsea (2008, 2012) have ensured England has had excellent representation in the Champions League final in the last few years. Chelsea and Liverpool have been in the Europa Final in the past couple of seasons too. To say the English League is weaker because they play too many games is absurd - there have just been 2 very good Spanish sides who have cleaned up in their respective speciality tournaments - 4 CL's for Barca, 3 EL's for Sevilla.

It's not impossible.

The fact the side in 6th could have more points than the side in 5th at the end of the season means this concept in ridiculous. Imagine a league like this:

1st 80 points
2nd 77 points
3rd 71 points
4th 68 points ------------------------- Less points than 5th, 6th and 7th = Champions League.
--------------------------------------------------------
5th 65 points --------------------Lost most of their games against the very top sides. = Europa League

6th 73 points ------------------ Won most of their game against the middle sides. = Nothing (Should really have CL, never mind EL).
7th 69 points
8th 67 points
-
-
-
15th 34 points -------------------- Lost most of their games in the middle group - SAFE
16th 41 points
17th 39 points

-----------------------------
18th 38 points ------------------------ Won most of their games against the bottom sides - RELEGATED.
19th 34 points
20th 32 points

It would be absolute chaos and it's totally unnecessary. It's also just not fair. It could also stop the best sides getting CL/allow poorer sides into Europe, which means we could do WORSE than current performance.
 

Paul_1984

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But, during the "second phase" you clarify this situation, because the Top 10 will play the returnig game.

So all top 10 clubs have played each other home and away.

The same happens between the Bottom 10.

The first break-up decide the clubs who could fight for the europpean places and the clubs who couldn't. 10-10, After 19 games.

The second break-up decide the clubs who could fight for the league title and the clubs who are save from relegation.

After this you have a third phase to determine the League Champion and the relegated clubs, and to "refine" the arrangement at the mid-table,

However i believe this triple partition and 3 groups at the end will prevent that cenarios to happen.

However if it happens will means nothing more than a good performance against clubs in the same group, specially Relegation Group.

Don't Forget Mid-table clubs will play 3 less games than Top 5 clubs. (33 VS 36).
 

1884 Belmont

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Don't Forget Mid-table clubs will play 3 less games than Top 5 clubs. (33 VS 36).

So it causes the sides who are in Europe to play more than the sides who aren't? SO WHAT IS THE POINT?

Sorry my friend, whichever way you look at this, it's an appalling idea.
 

Paul_1984

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So it causes the sides who are in Europe to play more than the sides who aren't? SO WHAT IS THE POINT?

Sorry my friend, whichever way you look at this, it's an appalling idea.

They will play 2 games less than right now: 36 VS 38.

During regular season mid-table clubs will play less games, but after they had play-offs, so 2 more clubs will reach 36 games, 2 clubs 35 games and 2 clubs 34, only 4 will remain with 33 games.
 

1884 Belmont

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My side currently plays in the 5th tier and we play 46 league games. We then, if we want to get promoted and fail to win the title, have to play a further 3 matches in the playoffs - 49 games.

Sorry, but why can't the very biggest clubs with the most money and biggest squads play 38 games a season? All that hassle for 2 less games? The manager could rest a player/players if he felt that strongly. It's just a rubbish proposal.

Play everyone ONCE at home and ONCE away. End of discussion.
 

Paul_1984

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Also this will mean more money from television rights and ticket sales.

At top level players have much more physical and psicological distress.

Don't Forget european competitions, National teams games, FA Cup and League Cup.

2 savings here and no more FA Cup replays will mean a lot to top level players...
 

1884 Belmont

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Also this will mean more money from television rights and ticket sales.

At top level players have much more physical and psicological distress.

Don't Forget european competitions, National teams games, FA Cup and League Cup.

2 savings here and no more FA Cup replays will mean a lot to top level players...

With all due respect, that's a load of bollocks.
Go and ask the Braintree players what it was like to travel to Gateshead on a Tuesday night, get back home about 3am and then go into work the following day. Physical and psychological distress? Don't make me laugh. More pressure to win? Probably, but I doubt John Terry was wondering if he could feed his kids in June (when he was out of contract) like so many non-league and lower league players do.

You've constantly undermined you're own arguments:
"English clubs suffer in Europe because they play too many games" - proposes system where those in Europe play the MOST domestic league games in top flight.
"It's because English clubs have too much money" - proposes "more money from television rights and tickets sales" as a positive for the new system (how do less games = more tickets anyway?).
 

Paul_1984

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With all due respect, that's a load of bollocks.
Go and ask the Braintree players what it was like to travel to Gateshead on a Tuesday night, get back home about 3am and then go into work the following day. Physical and psychological distress? Don't make me laugh. More pressure to win? Probably, but I doubt John Terry was wondering if he could feed his kids in June (when he was out of contract) like so many non-league and lower league players do.

You've constantly undermined you're own arguments:
"English clubs suffer in Europe because they play too many games" - proposes system where those in Europe play the MOST domestic league games in top flight.
"It's because English clubs have too much money" - proposes "more money from television rights and tickets sales" as a positive for the new system (how do less games = more tickets anyway?).

I said, english clubs have more money than almost any club in Europe, however this does not translate in to european titles. Also this situation is threatening other domestic leagues capacity to atract and mantain the best players. Because if one promoted english club has more money than 19 clubs in Ligue 1...

Then, clubs in Europe will not play the most domestic league games, they will play 36, the regular number with this model.

More money from ticket sales? lesser games, but more games with better sides, more interest, etc, so a little higer prices. :p

I guess, a fan will be available to pay a little more to see two more games with another club fighting for the league title, than two more games against clubs in the last places...

With less games in Premier League, FA Cup and League Cup I believe european performance could be better between english clubs, reaching further...

A total of 48 games in domestic competitions:
- Premier League: 36 games
- FA Cup: 6 games
- League Cup: 6 games (with all Premier League clubs entering at the same time), but one legged semi-final at Wembley if possible.
 
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The Mustard Tiger

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What an absolutely absurd idea this is. Honestly, it's truly mental. If you want to reduce fixtures just scrap FA Cup replays and get rid of the League Cup because it's shit.
 

TheMinsterman

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You could always just get the big boys to go form their super league to reduce the fixtures.
 

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