Jake Livermore tests positive for Cocaine

TractorBoys

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32755755

I know the whole role model argument,and I guess by the book it needs to be dealt with.

Is it really that much of a big deal, though? It's hardly performing enhancing?

I know some choir boys will say it's appalling but if he gets anything more than a fine I'll think it's ridiculous.

Sounds like it will be a lengthy ban.
 

Nath

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#2
I suspect a lot of footballers are at it. They've just been fortunate enough to not get caught.
 

Techno Natch

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#3
Silly boy. Everyone here knows that I think they should be legslised but when you're in a job that means your tested you should resist the temptation.

I have no doubt with the amount of money football players earn that there is loads of cocaine flying around.

It's not a big deal and it doesn't improve performance. What he does in his own time should be up to him and its stupid that if he had alcohol in his system nothing would be done. Hopefully common sense prevails and he is maybe fined and given support if needed.

No doubt the mail will paint him as an awful person though.
 

Jarv

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#4
He's really crossed the line hasn't he. Should they keep stuff like this quiet until he's failed his B sample? Still i suppose when the Papers get a sniff of a story. Do you reckon this will be a Blow to Hull chances? or might it Inject some fight into them? What do Hull Fans think? Is he the Messiah or a very Snorty Boy

In all seriousness nothing would be done if he had Alcohol in his system because that's not illegal where as Cocaine is. I have no sympathy for him he knows the risk of it being career ending so why take the risk
 

JJH

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Silly boy. Everyone here knows that I think they should be legslised but when you're in a job that means your tested you should resist the temptation.

I have no doubt with the amount of money football players earn that there is loads of cocaine flying around.

It's not a big deal and it doesn't improve performance. What he does in his own time should be up to him and its stupid that if he had alcohol in his system nothing would be done. Hopefully common sense prevails and he is maybe fined and given support if needed.

No doubt the mail will paint him as an awful person though.
May I ask why you think it should be legalized?
 

TractorBoys

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May I ask why you think it should be legalized?
Off topic, buttttttttttttt,

I echo the call for controlled legalisation.

It's less harmful than alcohol when used in moderation and legalising it would make it regulated - the dangers are typically with what it's been cut with, not the drug itself.

As always, the issues come with abuse but anything is dangerous when abused, food & alcohol being two great examples. Frankly, the one and only reason Alcohol and Cigarattes are legal whilst stimulants aren't is because the government cannot afford to ban them now due to the taxes they raise.

Stimulants used for recreational purposes (when not overused) are much, much, MUCH safer and less troublesome than Alcohol. The issues only arise for people with addictive personalities (studies show 10% of people do not have the same makeup as the other 90% of civilisation which makes it impossible for them to use alcohol/drugs recreationally - hence they become addicts - cool fact huh?)

Regulation would also save thousands of lives as the weights of the pure drug would be accurate meaning people weren't weighing by eye with no idea how much of a substance they have as opposed to how much other shit it's been cut with. Accidental overdoces would become close to a thing of the past (again, addicts be addicts yo - see points above).
 
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Cardsfan

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Off topic, buttttttttttttt,

I echo the call for controlled legalisation.

It's less harmful than alcohol when used in moderation and legalising it would make it regulated - the dangers are typically with what it's been cut with, not the drug itself.

As always, the issues come with abuse but anything is dangerous when abused, food & alcohol being two great examples. Frankly, the one and only reason Alcohol and Cigarattes are legal whilst stimulants aren't is because the government cannot afford to ban them now due to the taxes they raise.
Cocaine?
 

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There is a joke interview on the GTA 5 radio stations about people arguing for legalised cocaine. I didn't know anyone actually thought it was a good idea though. Marijuana is one thing, but cocaine?
 

TractorBoys

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There is a joke interview on the GTA 5 radio stations about people arguing for legalised cocaine. I didn't know anyone actually thought it was a good idea though. Marijuana is one thing, but cocaine?
Tell me one positive behind making it illegal? The fact its against the law has absolute no impact on a persons decision to take or take it. It's fundamentally flawed. I'm not suggesting we should all go out on the shine and party hard, but making it a criminal act is just ridiculous. It doesn't deter the user whatsoever.

Add that to the fact that it's safer than alcohol when used (and sourced) correctly.

Yah.
 

TractorBoys

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I thought the argument was that cannabis was less harmful than alcohol, never seen anyone try and claim cocaine is.

Links/evidence?
There's two or three excellent documentaries about this (some places in Europe now have places where people can go and 'use legally' in a controlled environment). Lemme try and dig them out.

As for facts, simply look up death rates & police incidents for violence/crime etc and compare them with alcohol. They are about 2-3% of alcohol incidents I believe.

Again- I'm not suggesting we should all start sniffing. I'm just saying it's quite funny that most people are set against it when in reality, it's a much safer, and it's use is much less troublesome on impact to the general public than alcohol.

Either ban them both, or neither.
 

Stevencc

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#16
Tell me one positive behind making it illegal? The fact its against the law has absolute no impact on a persons decision to take or take it. It's fundamentally flawed. I'm not suggesting we should all go out on the shine and party hard, but making it a criminal act is just ridiculous. It doesn't deter the user whatsoever.

Add that to the fact that it's safer than alcohol when used (and sourced) correctly.

Yah.
I didn't claim to hold an informed opinion one way or the other, I've just never seen anyone claim it was a good idea to legalise cocaine without being satirical/joking. It also seems pretty weird that you of all people are saying this, compared to your right wing views on a lot of other subjects. Like I say, I have never looked into this because it's never really been discussed seriously in any discussion I've been involved in or witnessed.
 

Cardsfan

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#17
There's two or three excellent documentaries about this (some places in Europe now have places where people can go and 'use legally' in a controlled environment). Lemme try and dig them out.

As for facts, simply look up death rates & police incidents for violence/crime etc and compare them with alcohol. They are about 2-3% of alcohol incidents I believe.

Again- I'm not suggesting we should all start sniffing. I'm just saying it's quite funny that most people are set against it when in reality, it's a much safer, and it's use is much less troublesome on impact to the general public than alcohol.

Either ban them both, or neither.
That's purely because of the fact that the usership of Cocaine is far lower though, surely?
And again, it's difficult to compare their effects on society when the numbers of those who use it is very different.
 

TractorBoys

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My point is more that anyone (not suggesting you do) would think that it being illegal has any impact whatsoever on people doing it - and doesn't get to the core issue of what's wrong. Nobody who wants to take drugs has ever not done so for fear of the law implications. That's why the 'war on drugs' is ridiculous.

Hey. I'm not a die hard campaigner for this. I just realise that the current law just leads to dirty, dangerous drugs and imprisonment/arrests have absolutely no impact on cutting down drug use.
 

TractorBoys

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That's purely because of the fact that the usership of Cocaine is far lower though, surely?
And again, it's difficult to compare their effects on society when the numbers of those who use it is very different.
It's not 'far lower' 1 in 40 adults admit to having used it at least 'infrequently'. Most commonly 18-35. And lets remember that's 1 in 40 of the people who didn't feel as though they had to lie in response to the question due to the stigma attached.
 

Stevencc

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My point is more that anyone (not suggesting you do) would think that it being illegal has any impact whatsoever on people doing it - and doesn't get to the core issue of what's wrong. Nobody who wants to take drugs has ever not done so for fear of the law implications. That's why the 'war on drugs' is ridiculous.

Hey. I'm not a die hard campaigner for this. I just realise that the current law just leads to dirty, dangerous drugs and imprisonment/arrests have absolutely no impact on cutting down drug use.
I've fancied trying certain drugs before but haven't done so because they are illegal and I have feared the possible repercussions. I'm certain I'm not alone in that sense, it is a deterrent to some.
 

TractorBoys

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I've fancied trying certain drugs before but haven't done so because they are illegal and I have feared the possible repercussions. I'm certain I'm not alone in that sense, it is a deterrent to some.
You're right, it will be to some but the overwhelming majority of people who think about taking drugs will not be deterred, and to those who already take them it has absolutely no affect on their decision making.

For example, to arrest true addicts for continuing use and just repeat a cycle of arrest-bail-brief *if any* prison time-release-drugs. The systems broke. The law has no impact on these people.

Also, the fact that it's now become common knowledge that the justice system is so overrun that if you get caught with a class A and there's no hint that you are supplying to others, that you are given a caution as opposed to even being charged providing you admit to the offence. (This is different to the 'Cannabis warnings' people get without being arrested - I have not confused the two.)
 

Techno Natch

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#22
Tractor Boy has covered it but I basically agree with everything he's said. Sheffield United fan asked me in the politics thread why I thought Heroin should be legalised and I wrote a response which I will copy in here as it basically covers the same ground:

Unfortunately the evidence disagrees with you. In both Netherlands and Portugal where drugs have either been regulated or decriminalised drug use has either remained consistent with other countries who have punitive drug laws or it has actually dropped lower. The amount of health problems in Portugal related to drug use after their change in law dropped significantly while other countries rose. In particular rates of HIV and Hepatitis dropped and also other harms associated with criminalising users.

I went to talk last summer where the head of
health in Portugal said they would never go back to the old days and that the war on drugs had been a complete failure for the people of his country. They changed the law 14 years ago. I can find the notes if you're interested and whole load of other useful material.

Personally I expect that initially some people might experiment a bit more but then if they actually wanted to use drugs now they could easily find them. I've come across obscure illegal drugs before and it's surprising how quickly you can find someone who knows where to find it. People also won't suddenly think its a good idea to take Heroin because it's legal.

Smoking is a good example as well, its use has decreased, not because it was made illegal but because we have started to educate people on the dangers properly!

If people do want to experiment then isn't it better for them to go to a licenced pharmacy where they can buy something that they know is real and get straight health advice? Rather than going round Garys who doesn't even know whats in his shit but assures you its pure?

As for Heroin, I am glad you brought it up. Heroin is the perfect example of why drugs should be legal and properly regulated. When I worked with Heroin users it was quite regular for the purity of Heroin to bounce around from 20% to as low as 1%.

Now that causes a number of problems. The person who sells it doesn't know how strong
it is and the end user doesn't know either. If he gets a stronger batch and doesn't test it before taking his normal amount he runs a high risk of overdose or death. This is increased when you consider that often Heroin was cut with Benzodiazpams which is an awful mix and can reduce your heart rate even further. This is how nearly all deaths from Heroin use occur and it is also how the one overdose I witnessed happened.

So now comes the uncomfortable truth for some. Heroin is of course highly addictive, I would never suggest to people that it is a good idea to take it. However in its pure form it is actually quite hard to overdose on Heroin. It's long term effects on users is also not as damaging as say Alcohol or Tobacco. You can just stop taking heroin, the withdrawl is of course horrific but it won't kill you. If you have a alcohol addiction and you just try to stop it could cause you serious seizures resulting in death.

Having proper support, education, a clean supply, facilities such as Drug consumption rooms and needle exchanges can dramatically reduce the harm of Heroin, not just for the user but to their loved ones and society in general so damn right I would regulate the market properly and help remove the stigma and barriers that cause so many to avoid seeking help in the first place.

The above works for any other drug too. When we talk about drug regulation, it does not mean a drug free for all where you can walk into a supermarket and buy any drug you want. It means a proper regulated service, taken out of the hands of criminals and backed up by proper education and support. Like we do for any other activities that can have a risk for someone doing it. There is no room for "morality" when we talk about drug use because there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to put something into their own body.
There is a thread in the politics section devoted to this debate too.
 

Techno Natch

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#23
That's purely because of the fact that the usership of Cocaine is far lower though, surely?
And again, it's difficult to compare their effects on society when the numbers of those who use it is very different.
Even when we take a sample of 1000 users of each drug Alcohol comes out near the top of physical and social harm. If it was illegal like other drugs you can bet that the harm would increase.

This was a study conducted by Professor Nutt who was the UK's drug advisor, he got sacked because his research found that Ecstasy, in it's pure form is a relatively safe drug compared to Alcohol. Basically he didn't toe the party line and they sacked him.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
 

Techno Natch

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#24
I didn't claim to hold an informed opinion one way or the other, I've just never seen anyone claim it was a good idea to legalise cocaine without being satirical/joking. It also seems pretty weird that you of all people are saying this, compared to your right wing views on a lot of other subjects. Like I say, I have never looked into this because it's never really been discussed seriously in any discussion I've been involved in or witnessed.
To be fair it could be argued that drugs being legal can be a good thing for people who believe in a right wing economy. You should see the amount of tax Colorado have made since legalising cannabis. I wouldn't want to take the free market route they have but it's been effective. Also they've saved so much money from ineffective police enforcement.

Transform are a good resource for this sort of information http://www.tdpf.org.uk/ :)
 

G.B

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#25
They should legalise and regulate the lot. We'd save (make) a shit load of money, drug related crime would plummet and we wouldn't have people dying from sniffing fucking rat poison and other dangerous substances. The 'war on drugs' is absolutely ridiculous and entirely unwinnable. People should be free to put whatever they want in to their body without being labled a criminal. I find it amazing that in 2015 regularly getting shit faced on alcohol (as a large percentage of the population do) is seen as socially acceptable but chilling out with a spliff at home is reet nawty. Mind boggling.

Also, the role model argument is a big steaming pile...
 
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#26
Lots of good points made but are they actually relevant? Coke isn't performance enhancing. Fine - but surely the problem is the reverse - i.e. recreational drug use and excessive alcohol consumption is going to adversely affect your performance on the field. If you're a professional athlete who gets paid a fuckload I don't really see that not poisoning your body on a regular basis is too much to ask. Basically, it's a breach of contract and his employer is quite entitled to come down harshly...
 

Blitzballer

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#27
Lots of good points made but are they actually relevant? Coke isn't performance enhancing. Fine - but surely the problem is the reverse - i.e. recreational drug use and excessive alcohol consumption is going to adversely affect your performance on the field. If you're a professional athlete who gets paid a fuckload I don't really see that not poisoning your body on a regular basis is too much to ask. Basically, it's a breach of contract and his employer is quite entitled to come down harshly...
Oh yes it is. I don't do it any-more but during my teenage years , was an every weekend thing. Me against three hench dudes trying to batter me would usually end up with me getting battered. But yeah I was high on coke and felt like superman. All three ran home.
True Story! one with a broken nose
 

G.B

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#28
Lots of good points made but are they actually relevant? Coke isn't performance enhancing. Fine - but surely the problem is the reverse - i.e. recreational drug use and excessive alcohol consumption is going to adversely affect your performance on the field. If you're a professional athlete who gets paid a fuckload I don't really see that not poisoning your body on a regular basis is too much to ask. Basically, it's a breach of contract and his employer is quite entitled to come down harshly...
Oh yeah, you're completely right in that sense. It's a stupid thing for a professional athlete to do and he'll be lucky not to get the sack, mainly from the stigma attached to cocaine (imo). That said, there is, and has always been, a drinking culture among footballers. You'd assume that'd affect their overall performance too. But the only time we hear about that is when a player is out the night before a game, immediately after losing one, or if they're outed as a full blown alcoholic. Bit weird I think. Like, if a player is pictured with a cigarette in his hand, it's all over the front pages the next morning and he's a moron for risking his future by smoking a fag. But we just sorta accept that people are gonna get wasted on alcohol, and that's ok... apparently.
 

silkyman

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#29
It's not 'far lower' 1 in 40 adults admit to having used it at least 'infrequently'. Most commonly 18-35. And lets remember that's 1 in 40 of the people who didn't feel as though they had to lie in response to the question due to the stigma attached.
You don't think 1 in 40 is far lower than the numbers of people who drink?

Even factoring in the social stigma, that's a bizarre opinion.
 

Cashis

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#30
The only thing Jake Livermore is guilty of is enhancing his night out so he could chat birds up better.
 

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