Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Womble98]

I can't see the Euro's going ahead without any kind of disturbance at this rate.

 

[silkyman]

As I have said, we (Europe) stop investment in our mosques by extremists and Saudi Arabia. Extremists like Anjem Choudrary should be stopped from preaching. There needs to be increased funding to religious education programmes, so that religious literacy is increased, and people understand the flaws of religion, and are therefore less likely to be indoctrinated by extremism.

By law all kids have to have some religious element to school. Usually 'group worship' in assembly.

When religion is so ingrained in education, you'll struggle to force kids to think rationally about it.

 

[Christian Slater]

By law all kids have to have some religious element to school. Usually 'group worship' in assembly.

When religion is so ingrained in education, you'll struggle to force kids to think rationally about it.

I'd say that's more how religion is treated in wider society. Loads of kids go to religious based schools and can make their own minds up.

 

[Womble98]

By law all kids have to have some religious element to school. Usually 'group worship' in assembly.

When religion is so ingrained in education, you'll struggle to force kids to think rationally about it.

We can change that. I disagree with your second sentence, I think there is a calibre of religious upbringing which can lead to a rational and critical outlook on life.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

christianity is pretty ingrained in our education and brits, on the whole, seem capable of thinking rationally about it

 

[silkyman]

Basically telling kids that Christianity is right and everything else is wrong?

No religion in school, and ban faith school.

 

[Christian Slater]

That's a bit of a misrepresentation of how religion is taught in schools.

 

[Womble98]

I know everyone here isn't a fan of religious schools, but I think there can be a logical argument made for the existence of God (though it is wrong), and if schools allow kids to think about it, look at it logically, they will benefit hugely. If you simply give them a one sided argument then problems will occur.

 

[silkyman]

No. There isn't a logical argument for it. There's a long thread on this which boiled down to 'ah, well... You can never be sure can you?'

Keep religion out of school. Learn about religions in history. If parents want to go further than that, they can do it at home.

Teach kids critical thinking and science and they can make their minds up.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Also, I can all but guarantee the attackers will be Belgian/French.

How can you?

Were you involved?

I'm onto you you fucking terrorist c***

 

[Christian Slater]

No. There isn't a logical argument for it. There's a long thread on this which boiled down to 'ah, well... You can never be sure can you?'

Keep religion out of school. Learn about religions in history. If parents want to go further than that, they can do it at home.

Teach kids critical thinking and science and they can make their minds up.

Theology is an important topic that explains cultures, societies and business. It'd be a bit ignorant to ignore it all, no matter how strongly you feel about what's true and what's not.

 

[Freakyteeth]

This would all be an ecumenical matter.

 

[Womble98]

No. There isn't a logical argument for it. There's a long thread on this which boiled down to 'ah, well... You can never be sure can you?'

Keep religion out of school. Learn about religions in history. If parents want to go further than that, they can do it at home.

Teach kids critical thinking and science and they can make their minds up.

The current poor level of religious education in schools contributes to the current problems. Completely removing it doesn't help.

 

[jacobncfc]

No. There isn't a logical argument for it. There's a long thread on this which boiled down to 'ah, well... You can never be sure can you?'

Keep religion out of school. Learn about religions in history. If parents want to go further than that, they can do it at home.

Teach kids critical thinking and science and they can make their minds up.

Even when I was in school RE might as well not have existed, we certainly never had 'group worship' or owt like that. Religious schools of all persuasions are more of an issue for me, they promote segregation and aren't right in a secular, inclusive society.

 

[Womble98]

Most Christian schools might be predominantly Christian but are mixed ethnicities. Muslim/Jewish schools tend to be far more ethnically insular.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I don't think people realise the counterpoint to this, which is that western media, western governments and perhaps predominantly, western people are fearful of another attack. It isn't discrimination borne out of nothing (not that it makes it right). This attack today will only serve to make more people despise them, which I'll admit quite freely is unfair on those who are peaceful, friendly, and contribute to society.

Absolutely MorDon, I think its a perfectly understandable reaction people have, fear is a powerful emotion, I completely appreciate why people become more suspicious of people even if, deep down, they realise it's wrong to do so. Yet of course equally, people seem to be unable to understand that if you keep kicking a dog and then act in indignant rage when it finally bites you as if you did nothing to contribute, its equally clouded.

I think my biggest issue is the absolute lack of nuance involved in debates around Islam and modern terrorism.

We consistently treat Muslims as one homogenous hive-mind in a way that we would never, ever, do when discussing ourselves. We are capable of appreciating the nuances between Western countries, for example we could easily discuss "homophobia and racism in the USA", we'd never term it as "the West", or "white people", we would never make such sweeping broad generalisations and assumptions. Yet, when it comes to Islam, we simply do not apply the same logic, it's always "Islam is a problem", "Muslims cannot integrate", it completely ignores the very real nuances involved. If "Muslims" cannot become more liberal and open to Western ideals, how on earth to modern cosmopolitan spaces like Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Muscat emerge? They certainly do not strictly adhere to every passage in the Quran and whilst they have their own social problems, they are demonstrable of Islam's capacity to begin to coexist with Western liberal ideals rather than being this large durable force of total resistance. Equally, Muslims live in so many different countries, countries with different cultural heritages, countries with different valyes, countries with different economic circumstances, all things which directly impact how they view the world and engage with the international sphere, yet we are still discussing them under this mass umbrella of "Islam".

Until we begin to break down this problem and stop debating it as a "Islamic" problem, we'll keep pouring fuel onto a fire which leads to more people feeling hated and victimised in our countries, leading to more easily moulded home grown terrorists of the future. I understand why the general pubic reacts as it does, but its about time those in charge stopped feeding into it.

 

[jacobncfc]

Most Christian schools might be predominantly Christian but are mixed ethnicities. Muslim/Jewish schools tend to be far more ethnically insular.

Ethnicity isn't really the point here, though.

 

[Womble98]

Ethnicity isn't really the point here, though.

But it is important that different ethnicities mix with each other especially when they might otherwise not.

Absolutely MorDon, I think its a perfectly understandable reaction people have, fear is a powerful emotion, I completely appreciate why people become more suspicious of people even if, deep down, they realise it's wrong to do so. Yet of course equally, people seem to be unable to understand that if you keep kicking a dog and then act in indignant rage when it finally bites you as if you did nothing to contribute, its equally clouded.

I think my biggest issue is the absolute lack of nuance involved in debates around Islam and modern terrorism.

We consistently treat Muslims as one homogenous hive-mind in a way that we would never, ever, do when discussing ourselves. We are capable of appreciating the nuances between Western countries, for example we could easily discuss "homophobia and racism in the USA", we'd never term it as "the West", or "white people", we would never make such sweeping broad generalisations and assumptions. Yet, when it comes to Islam, we simply do not apply the same logic, it's always "Islam is a problem", "Muslims cannot integrate", it completely ignores the very real nuances involved. If "Muslims" cannot become more liberal and open to Western ideals, how on earth to modern cosmopolitan spaces like Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Muscat emerge? They certainly do not strictly adhere to every passage in the Quran and whilst they have their own social problems, they are demonstrable of Islam's capacity to begin to coexist with Western liberal ideals rather than being this large durable force of total resistance. Equally, Muslims live in so many different countries, countries with different cultural heritages, countries with different valyes, countries with different economic circumstances, all things which directly impact how they view the world and engage with the international sphere, yet we are still discussing them under this mass umbrella of "Islam".

Until we begin to break down this problem and stop debating it as a "Islamic" problem, we'll keep pouring fuel onto a fire which leads to more people feeling hated and victimised in our countries, leading to more easily moulded home grown terrorists of the future. I understand why the general pubic reacts as it does, but its about time those in charge stopped feeding into it.

I think this is partially true, and something I am probably guilty of myself. But I disagree with your point about Islam's capacity to coexist with Western liberal ideals. Democracy is non-existent in Saudi Arabia, or the Gulf States. Turkey, once a shining example of secular democracy is increasingly going further and further towards an Islamic government. I fundamentally disagree that Islam and liberal democracy, where freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of expression (LGBT rights etc) is respected can coexist.

 

[TheMinsterman]

But it is important that different ethnicities mix with each other especially when they might otherwise not.


I think this is partially true, and something I am probably guilty of myself. But I disagree with your point about Islam's capacity to coexist with Western liberal ideals. Democracy is non-existent in Saudi Arabia, or the Gulf States. Turkey, once a shining example of secular democracy is increasingly going further and further towards an Islamic government. I fundamentally disagree that Islam and liberal democracy, where freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of expression (LGBT rights etc) is respected can coexist.

Of course, they're not perfect, but more an example that Islam CAN bend to SOME western ideals that actively go against what it strictly states in the Quran, something we're often told they simply "can't do" as a reason why they can't integrate when its demonstrable that they are capable of not following it strictly.

EDIT - Just as an example in relation to what you brought up, Bahrain for example, legalised homosexuality in 1976, there's still some way to go with LGBT rights, but its an example of them being capable of gradually adapting to western values.

 

[The East Terrace]

Religion isn't evil, people are, remove religion and they will simply exploit people in a new ways. Some for financial gain and some to fight a war they are to cowardly to fight themselves. I mean if someone said you had to blow yourself up in the name of your faith, my first question would be, "Why haven't you?". My eldest 2 went to Catholic school (wife is catholic not me), I think I know more about Catholic faith then the 3 of them combined and I'm a proddy. They did have mass as there was a church on the school grounds but I don't thik it rubbed off on them in any way.

 

[Womble98]

https://twitter.com/RobbieTravers/status/712290146490650624

Please notice and notate that often those who claim radical Islamism and violent Islamic terrorism is mainly a product of "western intervention" or "western wars", do not have a compelling answer to explain why Islamism slaughters and persecutes thousands in Indonesia, Nigeria, Turkey, and Nigeria

 

[Nath]

I can't see these kind of attacks ending anytime soon.

How do you stop this idea?

 

[Womble98]

As I have said, we (Europe) stop investment in our mosques by extremists and Saudi Arabia. Extremists like Anjem Choudrary should be stopped from preaching. There needs to be increased funding to religious education programmes, so that religious literacy is increased, and people understand the flaws of religion, and are therefore less likely to be indoctrinated by extremism.

Creating more employment in ghettos which would lead to them breaking up would also help.

 

[blade1889]

I can't see these kind of attacks ending anytime soon.

How do you stop this idea?

Nor can I and no idea

I dont think anyone really knows. Even the likes of Britain First dont have suggestions just a 'blame muslims' rhetoric which, if anything, only helps to enforce the us V them divide that causes issues in the first place.

If I were in government I'd be imposing an open ended questionnaire that every school child (age 10-16/18) and immigrant had to sit. It'd be designed to look at peoples radical views, views on rape etc. and those with unacceptable views would have to go through some kind of programme. If they had religious extremist views we'd be looking at where those views are coming from.

Would cost a lot and wouldn't be an ultimate problem solver but would help Imo. And be better than the stupid citizenship test people get atm.

 

[Womble98]

Apparently Salah Abdesalam was giving huge levels of support in escaping police. He was on the run for 126 days, and was in an apartment within a few hundred metres of his family home. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_Abdeslam

The number of people who must have known where he was and must have helped him, is really quite shocking.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

https://twitter.com/RobbieTravers/status/712290146490650624

nigeria turkey indonesia and nigeria? who are the thousands slaughtered by islamists in turkey? and also it says nigeria twice. so just nigeria and indonesia then

 

[Womble98]

nigeria turkey indonesia and nigeria? who are the thousands slaughtered by islamists in turkey? and also it says nigeria twice. so just nigeria and indonesia then

Sorry that was meant to be India, I accidentally typed Nigeria twice.

Turkey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey–ISIL_conflict#July_20:_bomb_attack_Suru.C3.A7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ankara_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2016_Istanbul_bombing

Over 200 dead.

India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Mumbai_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Burdwan_blast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Mumbai_train_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

turkey has been majority muslim for at least 500 years, so claiming that muslims are like inherently violent or can't run their own state when islamist violence has only kicked off with the unprecedented collapse of a neighbour within the last half a decade is a bit much, no?

there have been equally as horrible attacks on muslim communities by hindus in india, fwiw

 

[sl1k]

Thoughts are with the victims and family, first of all.

But this thread almost perfectly demonstrates how far we are from identifying who we're fighting and what we are up against in broader society. Obviously the discussion itself is an important one to be had, but it normally breaks down to the left and right anticipating each other's arguments and squabbling a little bit, others try make sense of it based on the narrative they're most familiar/exposed to, occasional 'fuck religon' sentiment indirectly - and unintentionally most of the time, mostly due to the lack of transparency of the problem - absolving from blame everything else in modern history that has contributed to how things culiminated this way.

The annoying thing is, the people who are most aware of these problematic factors are those who also have to put first their own country's political/diplomatic/economic interests/agendas. If we're relying on the state to come up with solutions, we'd all sooner be blown to kingdom come.

 

[silkyman]

Even when I was in school RE might as well not have existed, we certainly never had 'group worship' or owt like that. Religious schools of all persuasions are more of an issue for me, they promote segregation and aren't right in a secular, inclusive society.

Singing hymns and the old Lord's Prayer at assembly in the morning?