Confederate flag protests spread across US

BigDaveCUFC

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i may have this wrong as i don't live in the area but i think its a ridiculous thing from the outside.

Deal with the gun problem, or deal with the racist issue first....the flag just seems like some small compromise to lessen attacking the gun situation or else just a hopeful win for the PC brigade.

it won't solve much, it won't do much it'll probably make things more difficult with the white racist lot.....just is America dodging the real issues.

its also ironic they would rather the stars and stripes for their equality, a flag flown when they attacked the indian, the asian and the mexican populations in history.
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
I've heard people claiming the confederate flag is like the American Swastika. You don't see swastika's on public buildings in Germany.

But yeah, it does feel like this is the small plaster that they are using to fix inherent racism and gun control problems.
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
i may have this wrong as i don't live in the area but i think its a ridiculous thing from the outside.

Deal with the gun problem, or deal with the racist issue first....the flag just seems like some small compromise to lessen attacking the gun situation or else just a hopeful win for the PC brigade.

it won't solve much, it won't do much it'll probably make things more difficult with the white racist lot.....just is America dodging the real issues.

its also ironic they would rather the stars and stripes for their equality, a flag flown when they attacked the indian, the asian and the mexican populations in history.

The flag is the battle flag of Virginia, it is inherently a racist one. It symbolised the Southern identity in the American civil war and in particular their fight to maintain slavery. Although the civil was wasn't soley about white supremacy primarily it was. I think the move to have them removed goes deeper than appeasing a 'PC brigade' many republicans support this move including the Republican governor where the shootings occured.

In its original incarnation the background of the flag was white to symbolise white supremacy. I was listening to two American professors of history on the radio the other night and like them I agree that these flags really belong in museums.

I totally agree that this shouldn't overshadow the problems they need to deal with in terms of guns and racism, but I really do think they should be putting these flags away now.
 
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thespus

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Flags should be put away, but let's not pretend racism and pro-slavery were confined to the confederacy. There's a much deeper systemic race problem which politicians are trying to appease by taking down a flag which probably shouldn't have ever been raised.
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
Yeah, the timing of it re the photograph of the murderer is questionable. They should have taken the flags down ages ago.
 

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
When that video ended it had links to some other Southern stuff and a clip of American History X
 

Womble98

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Everytime someone says that the flag is flown simply as a reminder of their history I can't help but laugh.

In South Carolina the flag was put up after lawmakers passed a resolution in 1961 to fly it in response to the civil rights movement. Yes, the flag which symbolised slavery and oppression was put up solely to provoke or fly in the face of the demand that blacks and whites had equal rights, including the ending of segregation.


Some have argued that the flag doesn't symbolise slavery, and the civil war was in fact about the oppression of southern states by the northern ones. This is incorrect.

These are the words of its creator, William T. Thompson, vice president of the conferderacy.


I quote from the declaration of seccession from Mississippi
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

From Texas
In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

An awfully high number of uses of the word "slave" and "negro" for a war which supposedly wasn't mainly about the slaves.
 

Craig

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So I was at work when I made my last two posts, but seeing as I've waded in I may as well throw in my proper two penneth (or cents seeing as it's an American subject really).

Should the flag be removed from the state capitol building in South Carolina and never flown again there? yes, I believe it should. Not because of recent events but because it is a defunct national flag (or battle flag really) of a nation or entity that no longer exists. The CSA lost the American civil war, the only flags that should officially fly there are the stars and stripes and the state flags. On top of that it is understandably offensive to a lot of African-Americans, of which there are a hell of a lot in the Southern United States, and whom have the same right to be offended as the white population, as much as there may be an element of that white population that are unhappy about that fact.

Should it be viewed as a symbol of racism and pro-slavery? to an extent maybe, but not solely, not on a par with any Nazi symbols I don't think anyway. Plenty of people find the Union Jack offensive, and for just as valid a reason as many Americans find this flag offensive. True as it is that the Southern economy relied heavily on slavery let's not pretend that the majority of the men killed while wearing a grey uniform were slave owners, and if someone who's great grandfather was killed at Gettysburg wants to fly it then that's up to them.

So do I have a problem with it? no.
Can I see why people would have a problem with it? definitely
Do I think it should be removed from any official government buildings? certainly
Do I think people should be prevented from flying it on their personal property? not at all
Is it a symbol of racism, pro slavery and hate? only as much as countless other flags that don't attract this kind of attention
Is Hoyt Axton's rendition of 'I'm a Good ol' Rebel' peerless? you know it
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
Should it be viewed as a symbol of racism and pro-slavery? to an extent maybe,

That's reason enough that it shouldn't be seen as acceptable. Because it IS a symbol of racism.
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
if someone who's great grandfather was killed at Gettysburg wants to fly it then that's up to them.

Would that also stand for people in Germany wanting to honour their war dead with Swastikas or the family of that suicide bomber in Dewsbury with an ISIS flag?
 
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Craig

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Great cherry picking, keep up the good work.
 

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The only solution to a bad guy with a flag is a good guy with a flag.
 

BigDaveCUFC

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Curzon Ashton....and Carlisle
My own view is a nicer solution would be if they have a civil rights flag that could be flown side by side to the confed flag.........gives a stronger impression of white and black community side by side.

the problem I think with just removing the flag is when you hear from the last remaining white racists in America is their dogged viewpoint they have been giving ground up all the time and it is them now persecuted by a growing black majority and that viewpoint of trying to start a rebellion to gain back what was lost.

Thus having them then also lose their flag is only going to grow deeper racist issues and fuel the fire, what is probably needed is a way to somehow convince them both sides working together, both having giving things up.....not easy of course when a lot of the white racist will have been fed stuff for years
 

silkyman

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Macclesfield Town/Manchester City. It's complicated.
Great cherry picking, keep up the good work.

Those were the parts I wanted to respond to.

I'll throw in that if African Americans find the at offensive, it's another reason why it should be removed.
 

TheMinsterman

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Should they take down the US flag because Middle Eastern immigrants understandably might view it as the symbol of an oppressive regime of death and destruction in their homeland? It's a lot more relevant to modern suffering than the Confederate flag.
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
Those immigrants chose to live in a country that flies a flag that symbolises an oppressive regime in their homeland. Therfore I dont think they'd have much grounds for wanting the American flag removed. Conversely, African slaves did not go to America of their own volition. The confederate flag represented white supremacy and a system that stole them from their homeland.
 

thespus

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Yeah I don't think an Islamic immigrant to the United States asking for the American Flag to be replaced is a like-for-like analogy for the requests to take down Confederate flags. I work in medicine with several Muslims whom love being here and don't entertain any ideas of leaving. The American flag symbolizes much more to them than military oppression. In fact, I think the notion that the American Flag is some sort of oppressive symbol to Muslims has more momentum with non-Muslims whom dislike the US than it does with Muslim immigrants. Comparing it to a flag which stands for one archaic, oppressive ideology is disingenuous—I'd say it's even disrespectful the slave ancestors of those whom are requesting the Confederate flag be removed.
 

Craig

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How does the U.S. flag stand with Native American? maybe it's time to design a new flag?
 

thespus

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How does the U.S. flag stand with Native American? maybe it's time to design a new flag?

A significant number of atrocities committed against Native Americans happened before America was a country, and were committed by British soldiers and civilians. The Union Jack, like the majority of flag mainstays around the world, can be equated with some shitstains of human history. I do see what you're saying with the devil's advocate approach to more than just one flag being an oppressive symbol to others. Unlike the CSA flag, though, there is a lot more to it than one longstanding conflict over state's rights (to own slaves and demand escaped slaves be returned to the property owners). Overall, it's more the lack of any significant argument to even display the CSA flag in public property in the first place which puts it in a different category to other, modern flags.
 

Craig

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Yeah I mentioned the Union Jack in my earlier post, the same post where I also made clear my opposition to it being flown on government buildings. Putting it on a par with the Swastika though is something I don't agree. Slavery was still widespread in the 1860's, even in colonies of European countries that had abolished it, the systematic extermination of millions of people is a different kettle of fish I'd say.
 

thespus

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Yeah I mentioned the Union Jack in my earlier post, the same post where I also made clear my opposition to it being flown on government buildings. Putting it on a par with the Swastika though is something I don't agree. Slavery was still widespread in the 1860's, even in colonies of European countries that had abolished it, the systematic extermination of millions of people is a different kettle of fish I'd say.

As someone with both German and USA passports, I'd very much agree. That isn't a reflection on the tragic concept of slavery or the formation of a new country over the rights to own slaves, it is a reflection on the abomination that was the 3rd Reich. There were pro-slavery folks that fought for the union, there were slave owners that didn't treat slaves as inhumane as others and likely had the notion of using slaves ingrained in their mindset via generations of international acceptance, and there were racist twats involved in the Emancipation Proclamation with the sole intent of receiving other political favours in return. The Confederate flag is an obvious symbol of hatred, and should be removed, but Nazism carried greater magnitude, oppressed a broader range of people (is there a PC way to say that?), and occurred in an era with much less convoluted morality towards genocide than the issues of slavery-rights (which *puke* were technically protected by the constitution). All of this being said, fuck the lot of them. I've never much cared for flags to begin with.
 

Womble98

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If someone wants to fly a Confederate flag in their backyard, that is their choice and it is protected by the american constitution. A political institution and governing body flying it is entirely different though, that institution represents its population.
 

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tolerance of the confederate flag is far more pernicious because it represents America's failure to recognise and rectify the structural racism that still persists post-Jim Crow. but then the flag debate is a microcosm of race politics discourse in the States, and most euro-centric societies, as there will only be self-examination in a narrow and isolated sense. think white people need to stop distancing themselves from racism even if they don't think they're racist. we need to get our shit together and face up to the fact that collectively we pose a big problem to minority advancement.
 

TheArtfulDodger

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Like most nationalism, the idea of the Southern Confederate States, relies on an overly romanticised version of history but its still incredibly beguiling for many. I think the economic disparity between the former industrial and economic powerhouses of the Northern USA and the now relatively poor south plays into this. From being the 4th largest economy in the world as just the South, independent of the North, to a backwater in their own nation, for modern southerners the the Confederate flag feeds of that resentment, but its pro-Slavery symbolism cannot be denied and it should be laid to rest.

I don't think American society will ever truly heal the scars of slavery though.
 

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