Super_horns
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Guess so but like you just don't agree with it.
Err, I think I’m making a subtler argument than that. I’m suggesting a category distinction between (a) arguments people use to justify their position, and (b) explicit promises and commitments made on the campaign trail or in election manifestos.However you’re basing it that all politicians are liars and have always lied therefore we are good.
Well the deal negotiated by May was utter turd as it bound the UK into the EU forever - it wasn’t Brexit as we weren’t technically leaving. That’s why Boris voted against it. You can present that as blocking Brexit if you like, I saw it as blocking Remaining forever.Ok but what about when Boris blocked it, twice? Was he not doing the same thing?
Everyone seems to ignore that fact.
I noticed the Tory party have a report on Russian meddling in the referendum result but are refusing to release the report until after the election. What a joke.
But if Labour view it as a bad deal, then isn't that also fair enough to block it, just as Johnson did on his own party? Who decides whether or not its a good/bad deal and where do we draw the line? (FWIW, I'm not saying that they're not blocking it, just merely posing a question as to why Boris is allowed to do it against his own party, but the opposition isn't allowed to do it)Well the deal negotiated by May was utter turd as it bound the UK into the EU forever - it wasn’t Brexit as we weren’t technically leaving. That’s why Boris voted against it. You can present that as blocking Brexit if you like, I saw it as blocking Remaining forever.
The deal be negotiated removed that and therefore it was a way better deal and IS actually Brexit. I’m not keen on all of the deal but in the interests of this concept of compromise that Remainers want us to adopt I was happy to go with. But again Remainers blocked it.
Yes I saw that on the Russian meddling report, not great is it? Also heard that about 20 Brexit party MPs have apparently left the party as they aren’t comfortable with Farage’s policy to take on the Tories/his policy to go for no deal. The fact he isn’t standing puts him down in my estimation anyway. If he wants to impact UK politics he needs to get himself into the HoC.
But Labour didn’t reject it because it’s a bad deal, they rejected it because it doesn’t keep us in the customs union. There’s a difference between the two but essentially Labour would have rejected anything which didn’t retain the customs union. And that’s basically stupid because you might as well remain in the EU - you lose all power to shape the rules but still have to comply with them. It’s not Brexit at all.But if Labour view it as a bad deal, then isn't that also fair enough to block it, just as Johnson did on his own party? Who decides whether or not its a good/bad deal and where do we draw the line? (FWIW, I'm not saying that they're not blocking it, just merely posing a question as to why Boris is allowed to do it against his own party, but the opposition isn't allowed to do it)
Doesn't this deal also stop us from doing trade deals with the USA? Considering that & the single market were the 2 more points of Brexit, is that really Brexit? They've already announced that EU citizens will have free movement to work and live in the UK until December 2020 (whether we have a deal or not deal), so with that & no ability to trade independently, is that Brexit?
Didn't hear that about the MPs leaving the Brexit Party, I imagine Farage will have them replaced pretty quickly if that's the case though - it's not like they have any principles/policies other than taking us out with no deal. But yeah, its pretty embarrassing that he isn't running himself. I personally think he's afraid he won't get in again. But yeah, such a stupid tactic from the Brexit Party, although they won't get a huge number of votes IMO they will definitely be splitting the vote & actually pose probably the biggest risk of Brexit being stopped
Fair enough, cheers for the explanation. Although I think I heard Emma Barnett absolutely pulling them apart saying how essentially 18/48 is not enough if you're preparing for no deal, which is also true. Tbh, I dont know why Trump is moaning so much about it then, I thought he'd be promoting Boris' agenda - although I'm glad he's not, I dont think any foreign leader should get involved.Boris' deal allows for us to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals with any non-EU nation including the US, but they wouldn't come into force until after the transition period has ended. Barring any extension that would mean a whole slew of trade deals could be in place to come into force on January 1st 2021. At latest count we have about 18 ready to go covering 48 countries/territories.
But that's your opinion, in Labour's opinion it's a bad deal... Who decides what Brexit is or isn't? Maybe the Brexit party is needed if this is the case?But Labour didn’t reject it because it’s a bad deal, they rejected it because it doesn’t keep us in the customs union. There’s a difference between the two but essentially Labour would have rejected anything which didn’t retain the customs union. And that’s basically stupid because you might as well remain in the EU - you lose all power to shape the rules but still have to comply with them. It’s not Brexit at all.
Boris rejected May’s deal because it was a crap deal in that it wouldn’t actually result in us leaving and having the independent trade policy he campaigned for. It wasn’t Brexit.
I feel you’re being a pedant and trying to be clever, ask awkward questions (I get enough of that from my daughter thank you!). While some of it is valid, some of it is just being awkward for awkward’s sake.
Pro-Brexit Tories who voted down May’s deal three times did so because it was shit and because they believed (correctly) that replacing May with a PM prepared to threaten no-deal Brexit would lead to a better deal. Boris’s deal isn’t very impressive IMO, but it’s better than May’s, and that alone vindicates them. Also, those ERG types were absolutely willing to take the no-deal route if necessary, so it wasn’t a matter of lacking commitment. If anything, they were sticking to the “no deal is better than a bad deal” line that May established and then abandoned.Ok but what about when Boris blocked it, twice? Was he not doing the same thing? Everyone seems to ignore that fact.
Thank you, that articulates my answer better than I was capable of.Pro-Brexit Tories who voted down May’s deal three times did so because it was shit and because they believed (correctly) that replacing May with a PM prepared to threaten no-deal Brexit would lead to a better deal. Boris’s deal isn’t very impressive IMO, but it’s better than May’s, and that alone vindicates them. Also, those ERG types were absolutely willing to take the no-deal route if necessary, so it wasn’t a matter of lacking commitment. If anything, they were sticking to the “no deal is better than a bad deal” line that May established and then abandoned.
Anti-Brexit MPs in the Tory and Labour parties did not reject May’s deal three times (and then Johnson’s) because they thought it could be improved upon. They said “non” on each occasion simply because it was a Brexit deal, and because they believed that continued obstruction might lead to a scenario where the process could be nixed altogether. Believing that any Brexit deal is ipso facto a bad deal is an honourable position that may be vindicated by future events, but politicians who think that way should have made that clear when they stood for election. It’s the duplicity that grates.
P.S. This doesn't add much to what Laker posted, so apologies for the repetition.
That's an opinion, not a fact.Pro-Brexit Tories who voted down May’s deal three times did so because it was shit and because they believed (correctly) that replacing May with a PM prepared to threaten no-deal Brexit would lead to a better deal. Boris’s deal isn’t very impressive IMO, but it’s better than May’s, and that alone vindicates them. Also, those ERG types were absolutely willing to take the no-deal route if necessary, so it wasn’t a matter of lacking commitment. If anything, they were sticking to the “no deal is better than a bad deal” line that May established and then abandoned.
Anti-Brexit MPs in the Tory and Labour parties did not reject May’s deal three times (and then Johnson’s) because they thought it could be improved upon. They said “non” on each occasion simply because it was a Brexit deal, and because they believed that continued obstruction might lead to a scenario where the process could be nixed altogether. Believing that any Brexit deal is ipso facto a bad deal is an honourable position that may be vindicated by future events, but politicians who think that way should have made that clear when they stood for election. It’s the duplicity that grates.
P.S. This doesn't add much to what Laker posted, so apologies for the repetition.
Nope I don’t believe it’s an opinion, I believe that’s a fact. They would not have voted for any Brexit deal.That's an opinion, not a fact.
So on this basis that you've both said, really then parliament has only been blocking our leaving the EU since Boris took control, which has been less than 4 months.. In fact, how many times did they vote his deal down? Was it once of twice? (Genuinely can't remember).
So, the first 3 years of 'dither and delay' has ultimately been created by the Tory party, which makes it quite funny for Boris' slogan. I do like the Tory motto of "Britain deserves better" - says the government in power since 2010...
Yep, it’s my suspicion (not a declaration of platonic truth), and one no doubt skewed by certain ideological biases and grievances, which we all have to some extent.That's an opinion, not a fact.
Well tbh being in the customs union has worked out pretty well for us tbh - people seem to forget that we are also the country we are because of the customs union. It’s not all negative. But yeah, it’s the main point I think anyone would want.I think they’d vote yes to a Brexit including a customs union and then I’d have to question their sanity - why not just remain? There is no advantage to a customs union over remaining as far as I can see. It’s BRINO to most leavers.
Even the most staunch remainer would agree with your point that negotiating your own trade deals is a major advantage to leaving. It’s a key element and a customs union prevents that.
I was at a course last month with one of the big 4 accounting firms and the feeling there was that a deal is doable in the timespan but probably not for everything - so it’s likely to be goods only, not including services. We’ll see.I’d be very surprised if Boris managed to get a deal then if that’s the case
The only way IMO is if he gets to work immediately. Every single time the Tory government (be it Boris or May) would have an extension and just simply to nothing for 3 months, only meet once every now and again and make no ground - suddenly its the final month and panic stations, which ultimately led to another extension, no deal threat or a bad deal all round. People seem to think it was good negotiation, but it was shit - and that's a compliment.I was at a course last month with one of the big 4 accounting firms and the feeling there was that a deal is doable in the timespan but probably not for everything - so it’s likely to be goods only, not including services. We’ll see.
I can see why he’s trying to stick to his guns politically, and this stance will definitely resonate with voters. It’s difficult because however much you extend by, negotiations will always go down to that point so a short deadline in that respect doesn’t make much difference. But realistically there’s a lot to get through and I think we should have asked to extend by another 6-12 months.
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