European Union Referendum

[johnnytodd]

Can we get back to point scoring please .....paragraphs ffs.

 

[silkyman]

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/785593145329262592

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

To be fair, I was simply responding to Smat who seemed concerned that pogroms were just around the corner.

It's all just rhetoric. I agree. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we'll see what May's Government actually does in the coming years. But as a speech it was clearly aimed at scooping up centrist and floating voters. It was not the mega-scary xenophobic rant that some mad far-left journos and commentators have claimed.

I have still never voted Tory, FWIW.

The rhetoric concerning foreign workers, admittedly more a feature of Rudd's speech (which May did little to distance herself from) was appalling in my opinion. No matter that there was little consensus on what Brexit meant, or that 48% of those of us who voted opposed the measure, the government appear to have decided it was simply a referendum on immigration and seem to be doing their best to ensure that every foreign national residing here feels thoroughly unwelcome. Deeply divisive and irresponsible but I'm sure it's secured May some nice headlines in the Mail, so who cares, eh. One wonders what could be achieved if half the energy expended on lazy scapegoating was channelled into solving housing or infrastructure problems. What seems astonishing (on the face of it - who knows what goes on behind the scenes) is that May appears to be doing her best to emulate David Cameron in alienating the rest of the continent. The UK should be attempting to build sympathy for her position. Opting for hard Brexit seems perverse given the closeness of the result.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

The rhetoric concerning foreign workers, admittedly more a feature of Rudd's speech (which May did little to distance herself from) was appalling in my opinion. No matter that there was little consensus on what Brexit meant, or that 48% of those of us who voted opposed the measure, the government appear to have decided it was simply a referendum on immigration and seem to be doing their best to ensure that every foreign national residing here feels thoroughly unwelcome. Deeply divisive and irresponsible but I'm sure it's secured May some nice headlines in the Mail, so who cares, eh. One wonders what could be achieved if half the energy expended on lazy scapegoating was channelled into solving housing or infrastructure problems. What seems astonishing (on the face of it - who knows what goes on behind the scenes) is that May appears to be doing her best to emulate David Cameron in alienating the rest of the continent. The UK should be attempting to build sympathy for her position. Opting for hard Brexit seems perverse given the closeness of the result.

You don't know what you're on about mate. There was a "clear, overwhelming and unarguable mandate" for Brexit. Mr Davis also assures us that there are no down sides to leaving the EU. Life is good.

 

[.V.]

You don't know what you're on about mate. There was a "clear, overwhelming and unarguable mandate" for Brexit. Mr Davis also assures us that there are no down sides to leaving the EU. Life is good.

I don't understand how this government consider a 52-48 result, on a turnout under 75% an overwhelming mandate for a hard Brexit.

I did see that the senior civil servant who wrote article 50 thinks the country should vote in a 2nd referendum once we know the terms.

 

[silkyman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

For those who are claiming this is a 'clear mandate to do whatever the fuck she feels like' the other side wouldn't have just shut up and got on with it.

 

[Destruction]

She set out some of her key priorities for the next few years:

"Keeping our promises to the poorest people in the world. Providing humanitarian support for refugees in need. Taking the lead on cracking down on modern slavery wherever it is found. Ratifying the Paris Agreement on Climate Change."

Aye and then the next day her Government did this -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37567866

 

[silkyman]

Nicked from twitter: Imagine if remain had won by tiny margin & the govt went for "hard remain" - Schengen, Euro, multilingual signage. People would go apeshit.

 

[silkyman]

Aye and then the next day her Government did this -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37567866

Democracy? Only when it fucking suits.

 

[Laker]

Nicked from twitter: Imagine if remain had won by tiny margin & the govt went for "hard remain" - Schengen, Euro, multilingual signage. People would go apeshit.

Presumably remainers would have gone "apeshit", as you so eloquently put it, too since they would have wanted things to remain as they were?

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

At least the GBP is listening to Snoop Dogg and "dropping like it's hot".

 

[Alty]

The rhetoric concerning foreign workers, admittedly more a feature of Rudd's speech (which May did little to distance herself from) was appalling in my opinion. No matter that there was little consensus on what Brexit meant, or that 48% of those of us who voted opposed the measure, the government appear to have decided it was simply a referendum on immigration and seem to be doing their best to ensure that every foreign national residing here feels thoroughly unwelcome. Deeply divisive and irresponsible but I'm sure it's secured May some nice headlines in the Mail, so who cares, eh. One wonders what could be achieved if half the energy expended on lazy scapegoating was channelled into solving housing or infrastructure problems. What seems astonishing (on the face of it - who knows what goes on behind the scenes) is that May appears to be doing her best to emulate David Cameron in alienating the rest of the continent. The UK should be attempting to build sympathy for her position. Opting for hard Brexit seems perverse given the closeness of the result.

What rhetoric did you find particularly objectionable? There was nothing I thought seemed massively intemperate or worrying.

The thing that people picked up on and got their knickers in a twist about was the proposal to publish the percentage of foreign workers at firms. It was perhaps the most gimmicky of a series of measures (all just proposals at this point) to discourage firms from continuing to recruit directly from abroad even when there are people already in the UK who can - and want to - do that work. Maybe you disagree with that. But if you do you're right on the same page as neoliberals and big corporations.

 

[mnb089mnb]

What rhetoric did you find particularly objectionable? There was nothing I thought seemed massively intemperate or worrying.

The thing that people picked up on and got their knickers in a twist about was the proposal to publish the percentage of foreign workers at firms. It was perhaps the most gimmicky of a series of measures (all just proposals at this point) to discourage firms from continuing to recruit directly from abroad even when there are people already in the UK who can - and want to - do that work. Maybe you disagree with that. But if you do you're right on the same page as neoliberals and big corporations.

And if you agree with it you're on the same page as who? People a lot worse than neoliberals and big corps.

 

[mnb089mnb]

The rhetoric concerning foreign workers, admittedly more a feature of Rudd's speech (which May did little to distance herself from) was appalling in my opinion. No matter that there was little consensus on what Brexit meant, or that 48% of those of us who voted opposed the measure, the government appear to have decided it was simply a referendum on immigration and seem to be doing their best to ensure that every foreign national residing here feels thoroughly unwelcome. Deeply divisive and irresponsible but I'm sure it's secured May some nice headlines in the Mail, so who cares, eh. One wonders what could be achieved if half the energy expended on lazy scapegoating was channelled into solving housing or infrastructure problems. What seems astonishing (on the face of it - who knows what goes on behind the scenes) is that May appears to be doing her best to emulate David Cameron in alienating the rest of the continent. The UK should be attempting to build sympathy for her position. Opting for hard Brexit seems perverse given the closeness of the result.

The way the government have dealt with Brexit so far has been nothing short of a disaster.

Skilled EU nationals who currently work in the UK are being told they're a burden, a problem or a negotiating chip. If you're a highly skilled EU migrant in the UK and you're looking for your next job where would you look? The UK or Europe? We're going to lose a lot of good people in the next couple of years.

 

[.V.]

UK 'may still have to pay into EU even after Brexit'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37627308

 

[Ciderhead]

Be interested to know which leave voters on here would find least objectionable: retaining free movement of people or continuing to make financial contributions? Or if they'd prefer to leave the single market than make either one of those concessions?

Not trying to score a point here, just genuinely curious

 

[Alty]

And if you agree with it you're on the same page as who? People a lot worse than neoliberals and big corps.

The majority of people in this country who disagree with the practice of recruiting people from abroad when there are people already here qualified to do it. These people range from migrants' rights campaigners concerned about the exploitation of foreign workers shipped in to live in a doss house and work for shite wages, to mad racists who hate all foreigners. And a fuckload of people in between.

 

[Alty]

The way the government have dealt with Brexit so far has been nothing short of a disaster.

Skilled EU nationals who currently work in the UK are being told they're a burden, a problem or a negotiating chip. If you're a highly skilled EU migrant in the UK and you're looking for your next job where would you look? The UK or Europe? We're going to lose a lot of good people in the next couple of years.

TBH the intellectually feeble and over emotional EU nationals who think this way we can probably do without.

 

[silkyman]

So someone adding 'Is there a possibility that the country will deport me' into their list of pros and cons about moving abroad is 'feeble and overemotional'?

We only want the migrants who don't care if we are going to tell them to fuck off as soon as they've settled in.

 

[silkyman]

What rhetoric did you find particularly objectionable? There was nothing I thought seemed massively intemperate or worrying.

The thing that people picked up on and got their knickers in a twist about was the proposal to publish the percentage of foreign workers at firms. It was perhaps the most gimmicky of a series of measures (all just proposals at this point) to discourage firms from continuing to recruit directly from abroad even when there are people already in the UK who can - and want to - do that work. Maybe you disagree with that. But if you do you're right on the same page as neoliberals and big corporations.

Plus the general language used. We will 'allow' doctors to stay. For a bit.

The language used belies the real opinions of the speaker. 'We will allow doctors to stay until we have enough of our own' translates to 'We will fuck all of those foreign wankers off just as soon as we can' to me.

'Allow them to stay' means that we think that at some point we will be able to tell them that they are not allowed anymore.

Otherwise, the comment would have been more along the lines of 'We welcome the ongoing contributions of foreign doctors and nurses to the NHS'.

And if they want to get all 'deporty' on doctors, what chance does anyone else have?

They have already backtracked on forcing companies to list foreign workers (incidentally, there has been a mini census in schools already to list every child's nation of birth. It seemed a bit odd at the time, but in the context of what came later, it was downright creepy) because it was widely decried, but the fact is that behind the scenes, there are enough people in power who thought it was the right thing to do for it to get into a speech in the first place. And that's frightening.

 

[mnb089mnb]

TBH the intellectually feeble and over emotional EU nationals who think this way we can probably do without.

The person I know who feels this way is a lecturer at an excellent university. He had intended to bring up his family in the UK. Considering his family's current status as a bargaining chip I can understand why his and his family's long term future might not be in the UK. Can you tell me what the status of his children will be when they grow up? Will he be allowed to work two years from now? I think they _probably_ will. But when you have a family you don't work on "probablys", you ensure security for your family.

It's certainly not intellectually feeble or over-emotional.

 

[Krazy8]

I did see that the senior civil servant who wrote article 50 thinks the country should vote in a 2nd referendum once we know the terms.

Think it's probably time to give up on that.

The way the government have dealt with Brexit so far has been nothing short of a disaster.

Not sure what else they're supposed to do. Brexit was voted for and brexit is being delivered.

Be interested to know which leave voters on here would find least objectionable: retaining free movement of people or continuing to make financial contributions? Or if they'd prefer to leave the single market than make either one of those concessions?

Leave the single market for sure, don't see the benefit of it whatsoever. Would much rather we retook our place in the WTO and negotiated to our own interests rather than have an EU commissioner do it for us.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Leave the single market for sure, don't see the benefit of it whatsoever. Would much rather we retook our place in the WTO and negotiated to our own interests rather than have an EU commissioner do it for us.

And that is the key to the #LongTermGains?

 

[Alty]

The person I know who feels this way is a lecturer at an excellent university. He had intended to bring up his family in the UK. Considering his family's current status as a bargaining chip I can understand why his and his family's long term future might not be in the UK. Can you tell me what the status of his children will be when they grow up? Will he be allowed to work two years from now? I think they _probably_ will. But when you have a family you don't work on "probablys", you ensure security for your family.

It's certainly not intellectually feeble or over-emotional.

I'm sorry, this is just incredibly disingenuous.

Throughout the referendum campaign Remainers banged on and on and on about the status of British nationals living abroad. The Government's position post-Brexit - about which they have been very clear - is that they believe all UK nationals living in the EU should be granted right to remain in return for the UK granting the same right to (many more) EU nationals living in the UK. And yet now bitter Remainers are blathering on about 'bargaining chips'. You can't have it both ways. The UK is willing to allow all EU nationals to stay and the only way this won't come to pass is if the EU demands Brits on the continent have to leave.

The wider point is really about instability. Do we know exactly what the status of EU nationals will be in future? Do we know what visa arrangements will be? Can we give confident predictions about the number of trade deals? Or GDP? No. We can't give cast iron guarantees on any of this stuff. But then when did liberals or lefties become so anti-change? It's basically small 'c' conservatism. "This is the way it's been for yonks so this is the way it should stay. I'm not putting up with any upheaval".

I don't think the Government (or the Opposition) have said anything to suggest Europeans are unwelcome and should all fuck off. As well as returning to democracy we're simply seeking to return to a manageable immigration system. Frankly I wish some of the people crying racist would move to their beloved EU for a while and see what it's like there. Even developed, well-off countries like France, Italy and Spain are far more racist than the UK.

 

[mnb089mnb]

It's not disingenuous, it's my opinion based on my own experiences.

 

[.V.]

https://www.ft.com/content/3c1eb988-9081-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78

 

[Abertawe]

Your boy isn't gonna be told to sod off, even so he's skilled enough to get work just about anywhere in the world. Tbh, give him a slap for being such a lettuce, there will be lowly paid poorly protected EU peeps with real worries about what brexit may mean,he's just being a GIMP.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Frankly I wish some of the people crying racist would move to their beloved EU for a while

"IF U LIKE IT SO MUCH THEN WHY DONT U GO LIVE THERE"

And lo, another layer of Alty's onion is peeled away, bringing us ever closer to the toxic bulb nested at its centre.

 

[AnimoEtFide]

The wider point is really about instability. Do we know exactly what the status of EU nationals will be in future? Do we know what visa arrangements will be? Can we give confident predictions about the number of trade deals? Or GDP? No. We can't give cast iron guarantees on any of this stuff. But then when did liberals or lefties become so anti-change? It's basically small 'c' conservatism. "This is the way it's been for yonks so this is the way it should stay. I'm not putting up with any upheaval".

This paragraph makes me want to chew my own face off.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

More than a grain of truth to it, though. One of the most interesting things about the referendum debate was the weird sort of role reversal that occurred. On one side, you had normally drab, curtain-twitching, conservative-minded folk (like me) arguing for radical change on ideological grounds, blithely disregarding the practical implications of the proposed change. On the opposing side, you had the left-liberal progressives (of the nominal kind at least) reduced to uber-pessimistic anti-change fretting, much of which amounted to little more than mindlessly parroting the concerns of big business. Usually the other way around.