Forest Green

[Greenacres]

You'd have to come by on a bicycle around this time of year, in order to power the microwave yourself.

Aha, so I take it that I'm not the only person to spot the fatal flaw in relying on windmills to power the nation...in the icy depths of winter, when power is required to heat homes, it is largely cold because there is high pressure over the country, which is usually accompanied by largely windless conditions!

 

[Solihull Mooron]

What level of bankrolling are Solihull getting. Not criticising, just asking.

Just seen this - We have a big car park next door to Jaguar Land Rover, which is full every day for workers. We have our clubhouse, but so do most teams. That's about it

 

[Jemfy]

Its not under any particular model as such. It was written into the clubs constitution in 1996 that no single person is allowed to have a majority of the shares,... and in fact the club has many hundreds of shareholders and nobody has more than about 5% of them, even the directors, who are extremely dedicated fans as well. The club has no loans, debt or borrowings at all, an 80 year lease on the ground and only 2 full time staff who run our new Community Sports Hall, everyone else is a volunteer. Club never been in a healthier state, ever.

Sorry for everyone else, but I find this very interesting. Do you have any links to any articles explaining this fully, i.e. how it works, how it's policed and what the club gains and loses from it? As far as I'm aware such a model is quite unique and appears to be a good model of community ownership especially for clubs where sheer number of fans each putting in "x" every year isn't going to cut it.

Back on topic, BBC now reporting on FGR being nearly £5.4M in debt http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34976354

For the record R&DFC were never in that much debt.

 

[Greenacres]

Much of our debt relates to a commercial mortgage taken out to build our ground, on which I understand we have never failed to make a payment on time...so not all of that amount has been spunked on inflated player wages, solar panels, mowbots or vegan pies...despite what some would like to believe!

 

[Alty Pieman]

Sorry for everyone else, but I find this very interesting. Do you have any links to any articles explaining this fully, i.e. how it works, how it's policed and what the club gains and loses from it? As far as I'm aware such a model is quite unique and appears to be a good model of community ownership especially for clubs where sheer number of fans each putting in "x" every year isn't going to cut it.
Back on topic, BBC now reporting on FGR being nearly £5.4M in debt http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34976354
For the record R&DFC were never in that much debt.

Its an excellent model that as far as I know is unique to Alty and came about when the previous owner (who had 75.1% of shares) tried to shut the club down in 1995 and build houses on the ground. Me and about 1000 others persuaded him not to and he gave us the shares and we made this rule thats stuck ever since. It doesnt need policing and we dont lose anything as nobody round here ever wants to put money into the club (despite Alty being a very affluent area) probably as we are dwarfed by MUFC and MCFC (and to a lesser extent Stockport) just down the road.

Ironically, Stockport got shafted by its owner and now play a level below us and still havent got their financial house in order which is a pity as its has a fabulous and loyal fanbase who deserve more.

The complacency of FGR fans is no surprise though, but one day,... as the BBC article states,
"They have a very wealthy owner. As long as the owner is prepared to put money in to cover those losses there is not too much of a problem.
The issue is if the owner walks away if they don't get promoted and it leaves them in a relatively dire financial situation."

Time bomb at FGR, when Dale get food poisoning from his veggie burger, or gets hit by a falling wind turbine, or doesnt get planning for his baby, and pulls the plug, then welcome AFC Stroud again

 

[Chris FGR]

The complacency of FGR fans is no surprise though, but one day,... as the BBC article states,
"They have a very wealthy owner. As long as the owner is prepared to put money in to cover those losses there is not too much of a problem.
The issue is if the owner walks away if they don't get promoted and it leaves them in a relatively dire financial situation.

What would you suggest fans are supposed to do? Protest and demand Vince stops investing?

That would only cause damage and make us more likely to crash and burn.

 

[Greenacres]

The complacency of FGR fans is no surprise though, but one day,... as the BBC article states,
"They have a very wealthy owner. As long as the owner is prepared to put money in to cover those losses there is not too much of a problem.
The issue is if the owner walks away if they don't get promoted and it leaves them in a relatively dire financial situation."

Time bomb at FGR, when Dale get food poisoning from his veggie burger, or gets hit by a falling wind turbine, or doesnt get planning for his baby, and pulls the plug, then welcome AFC Stroud again

I'm certainly not complacent and will freely admit to not having liked all of the change that has taken place at the club. With time I can accept that some of it needed to be done and even the change in colours has been a positive thing in the long run...there is nothing quite like being distinctive! My initial worry was that he would asset strip the place, ie: flog off the ground or build a wind farm on it and leave us homeless, which has happened elsewhere, but I now believe that he has invested so much in the club that his reputation would be severely damaged if he walked away. Clearly there are plenty of people, including a vociferous minority on this forum who would like to see it happen, whereas there are possibly a silent few who secretly wish it had happened to their club. I certainly can't predict the future, in reality nobody can, but the present isn't too bad.

 

[Jemfy]

Much of our debt relates to a commercial mortgage taken out to build our ground, on which I understand we have never failed to make a payment on time...so not all of that amount has been spunked on inflated player wages, solar panels, mowbots or vegan pies...despite what some would like to believe!

A breakdown of debt and timescales would be interesting. Such as how much is owed on the mortgage, and how favourable terms can a football club ever really get on such a borrowing? (football clubs being notorious for not paying off their debts, even with the site as collateral)

 

[Alty Pieman]

Fair enough, from a fans perspective there's not a lot you could do anyway, so maybe acceptance rather than complacency would be a fairer description. Interestingly, both Stockport and R&D fans did take control for a while and both managed to fuck it up so being fan controlled isnt the elixir to salvation necessarily. But I must say, the great feeling of a family orientated club with security of tenure and control of our own destiny that we have at Alty now would take some beating.

Bottom line is, its risk, usually a big one, but not all saviours do walk away and maybe Mr Veggie wont short term and when he does,.... leave you better off and debt free, its possible.

 

[Greenacres]

Fair comment Alty, most fans have little or no experience at running anything more than a bath, let alone a business employing dozens of people or a football club. I think the best fit can be having a fan representative as a board member, so at least there is some link between us as supporters (customers) and those running the club. I believe that if this had been done at our club some of the changes that did alienate fans when Dale took over might have been reduced or delayed, rather than being implemented in one go. I do like the sound of the Alty model and, despite what some may say, think we have a really good family feel now. In the last couple of seasons the average age of our supporters has gone down considerably, far more families and kids, which certainly bodes well for the future.

 

[Jemfy]

Fair enough, from a fans perspective there's not a lot you could do anyway, so maybe acceptance rather than complacency would be a fairer description. Interestingly, both Stockport and R&D fans did take control for a while and both managed to fuck it up so being fan controlled isnt the elixir to salvation necessarily. But I must say, the great feeling of a family orientated club with security of tenure and control of our own destiny that we have at Alty now would take some beating.

Bottom line is, its risk, usually a big one, but not all saviours do walk away and maybe Mr Veggie wont

The problem with fans taking control in a financially negative position as a club is that they need to turn it around. Failure to do so automatically either makes the club go in to administration or puts the assets (i.e. homes) on the line for the people who step in as directors should they fail to put the club in to administration.

R&DFC were given the best possible start with the finances provided by Griggs initially, however turning it around was going to take a lot longer than the fans had. I think that's the case for most sets of fans who get the option to take control of the clubs. Without some serious investment from a 3rd party, or a soft handover in a close to break-even situation, the transition doesn't work.

Frankly if FGR get shafted by Vince leaving, and no private investor stepping in, then I'll be amazed if they survive. Hope for FGR's sake it doesn't happen, as it's awful to happen to anybody. I wouldn't even wish it on Kettering (despite the fact that they are continuing to spend beyond their means and be covered by a chairman - last season in a division where they pretty much double anyone else's attendances).

 

[Chris FGR]

But I must say, the great feeling of a family orientated club with security of tenure and control of our own destiny that we have at Alty now would take some beating.

A lot of fans would be happy with that, but at a lot of clubs it isn't really possible, as it's not under fans control who owns the club, and therefore who buys it and how it's then run.

I agree with Greenacres that there is still a family feel to a certain extent, although you now feel far more like a customer rather then part of a community like it was before, and far less jobs are being done by volunteers around the club.

 

[Jemfy]

Fair comment Alty, most fans have little or no experience at running anything more than a bath, let alone a business employing dozens of people or a football club. I think the best fit can be having a fan representative as a board member, so at least there is some link between us as supporters (customers) and those running the club. I believe that if this had been done at our club some of the changes that did alienate fans when Dale took over might have been reduced or delayed, rather than being implemented in one go. I do like the sound of the Alty model, and despite what some may say, think we have a really good family feel now. In the last couple of seasons the average age of our supporters has gone down considerably, far more families and kids, which certainly bodes well for the future.

A fan representative on the board (preferably elected from some sort of supporters trust etc) as a non-executive director is something that I believe all clubs should try to do. While confidentiality means not everything can be reported, having someone their to express concerns and build links is huge.

Various forms of diverse ownership will hopefully be the long term future of clubs due to the largely reduced ability to get in to terrible situations.

Interesting point, R&DFC had a very young average age generaly as well, for very similar reasons I imagine (successful football etc). I wonder if we had been able to stabilise in the league for 5-10 years if the supporter base might then have been large enough to help deal with some of the issues involved in the fan takeover

 

[The_Boss]

probably as we are dwarfed by MUFC and MCFC (and to a lesser extent Stockport) just down the road.

And Macc.

 

[genesimmons]

The forest green owners still around and his money is paying dividends the way they are doing. Rather them get promotion than usual cycle of ex football league clubs as per most seasons. Ive seen clubs with less debt go under. Your ground looks better than alot in football league so why build a new one, aimeing for bigger ground or one thats in a more accessible location

 

[Chris FGR]

Much of our debt relates to a commercial mortgage taken out to build our ground

Which was part of the original £1.7m debt which Vince/Ecotricity inherited at the time of the takeover. Since then further debt has been built up, with annual losses consistently increasing. I'm not sure where all that expenditure is going, but I would guess a fair amount of the most recent losses (£2.9m) are down to the playing budget. Last seasons playing budget was apparently around £1.6m, having been reduced from the previous season. Ironically we actually did better with a smaller (albeit still large) budget. Shows how spectacularly we were failing under Hockaday. The budget has apparently been lowered again this season.

Last year £2.5m of the indebtedness was transferred into shares owned by the club through the Ecotricity Group. This has happened a few times in recent years. Apparently Ecotricity's shares now total around £7m, which inflates the worth of the club in real terms and exceeds the value of it's assets. In 2010, the share value was around £500k.

None of this is a real issue as things stand, but the concern would be what would happen if the club fails to win promotion any time soon and/or fails to get planning permission for a new stadium. It's starting to look like it could be win or bust on both, as the entire plan financially seems to be centred on those things happening, neither of which are guaranteed by any means.

 

[Jemfy]

Which was part of the original £1.7m debt which Vince/Ecotricity inherited at the time of the takeover. Since then further debt has been built up, with annual losses consistently increasing. I'm not sure where all that expenditure is going, but I would guess a fair amount of the most recent losses (£2.9m) are down to the playing budget. Last seasons playing budget was apparently around £1.6m, having been reduced from the previous season. Ironically we actually did better with a smaller (albeit still large) budget. Shows how spectacularly we were failing under Hockaday. The budget has apparently been lowered again this season.

Last year £2.5m of the indebtedness was transferred into shares owned by the club through the Ecotricity Group. This has happened a few times in recent years. Apparently Ecotricity's shares now total around £7m, which inflates the worth of the club in real terms and exceeds the value of it's assets. In 2010, the share value was around £500k.

None of this is a real issue as things stand, but the concern would be what would happen if the club fails to win promotion any time soon and/or fails to get planning permission for a new stadium. It's starting to look like it could be win or bust on both, as the entire plan financially seems to be centred on those things happening, neither of which are guaranteed by any means.

So the take aways from this appear to be:
1. The losses significantly exceed the total playing budget for each individual year. (First of all - how?!?)
2. Losses created are far in excess of the ~£5.4M quoted (implied by ~£6M further, minimum £2.5M), but have been reduced by share issue.
3. Despite creating these losses outside of playing budget the club hasn't hugely increased it's asset values as a result (anybody with access to the financial reports able to confirm the changes in asset values).

My question is: if you're losing £2.9M a year on a £1.6M budget, how in the hell is a non-league football club losing over £1M from non-playing activities?!? Even if there has been huge investment in the youth section that's still a lot of losses which are difficult to account for!

 

[GuiseleySteve]

 

[GTFCfish]

Rather them get promotion than usual cycle of ex football league clubs as per most seasons.

Some of us ex league clubs enjoyed it down here so much we decided to stick around a while.......

 

[The_Boss]

Oh dear Dale......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35005322

"There are plenty of clubs in this league with our kind of money and our kind of budget,"

"I think from next year League Two clubs get £1m a year and in this league you get nothing so to become financially sustainable getting into League Two is a massive part of that. When we achieve that, overnight we'll be running at virtually break even."

I'm not sure he understands that FGR are from from guaranteed promotion to the FL, what then happens if/when they miss out, don't get this £1m a year, don't run at just break even (not actually at profit to reduce the debts), then spend another year accruing further debt. For a supposedly sound businessman, there seem's to be a lot of presumptions being made here.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Pretty sure we don't have any debt. The BBC have got it wrong. We've made losses year to year but they've been covered by Vince. There is no debt.

 

[Southern Shayman]

Pretty sure we don't have any debt. The BBC have got it wrong. We've made losses year to year but they've been covered by Vince. There is no debt.

It's debt on the accounts regardless of whom it's owed to...

 

[Chris FGR]

It's debt on the accounts regardless of whom it's owed to...

How many club's don't technically owe debts to their owners though?

Vince knows he's never going to get it back, and anyway the free exposure/advertising his company gets by owning a football club is more then making up the deficit.

Making losses is never good, but to hear that they've peaked and that there is a clear plan to start breaking even, which could happen virtually overnight apparently, is very good news for FGR fans. Just need to make sure we get promoted now.

 

[GTFCfish]

How many club's don't technically owe debts to their owners though?

Vince knows he's never going to get it back, and anyway the free exposure/advertising his company gets by owning a football club is more then making up the deficit.

Making losses is never good, but to hear that they've peaked and that there is a clear plan to start breaking even, which could happen virtually overnight apparently, is very good news for FGR fans. Just need to make sure we get promoted now.

I think we may owe Fenty a quid or two.........

 

[EnglishRed]

Forget the losses, what's up with his hair!?

 

[Southern Shayman]

How many club's don't technically owe debts to their owners though?

Vince knows he's never going to get it back, and anyway the free exposure/advertising his company gets by owning a football club is more then making up the deficit.

Making losses is never good, but to hear that they've peaked and that there is a clear plan to start breaking even, which could happen virtually overnight apparently, is very good news for FGR fans. Just need to make sure we get promoted now.

While the context of the debt obviously makes a difference, to say "we don't have debt because it's owed to Vince" is categorically wrong.

Also, I'd worry about Vince's maths... 2 and a bit million a year loss, yet he believes 1million extra in revenue makes you break even - without taking in to account the extra costs of being up a league.

Anyhow, I'm not going to go in to the pro's and con's of the model. The facts remain, FGR like pretty much every other club, have debt.

 

[Alty Pieman]

How many club's don't technically owe debts to their owners though?

Alty for one

 

[Jemfy]

How many club's don't technically owe debts to their owners though?

Vince knows he's never going to get it back, and anyway the free exposure/advertising his company gets by owning a football club is more then making up the deficit.

Making losses is never good, but to hear that they've peaked and that there is a clear plan to start breaking even, which could happen virtually overnight apparently, is very good news for FGR fans. Just need to make sure we get promoted now.

If it's on the books it can be recalled. Most owners write off the debt. Vince/Ecotricity haven't. If something happens it can be recalled.

Who knows, he might have some plan to get a lot of it back in the long term? Else he could use it as leverage should he wish to sell the club to get it back from a potential buyer (hypothetically).

You're hearing that they've peaked, but there is no evidence of that yet. Be skeptical until they are going down again and looking towards a break even number.

 

[The_Boss]

Banking on promotion is not "a clear plan to start paying it back".

 

[genesimmons]

Didn't leeds put all money into new signings on strength of makeing champions league, which never happened. Nowts guaranteed in football