Incident at London Bridge

[Redfox]

 

[JoshBCFC]

It would be a good start.
And immigration should be at least a 2 year process where detailed monitoring is performed - all social media passwords handed over, etc.
We need to protect our people and our children. We are failing to do that.
Let the Muslims live their lives in their countries. Let us live in peace in Europe.

That's exactly want ISIS want! If we ban Muslims there will be a spike in disillusioned people travelling to Syria attempting to join ISIS, leading to ISIS having success in the Middle-East and eventually, coming back to bite us in Europe.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Hope everyone is ok.

That's the 2nd time I've posted that comment and it seriously bothers me. Something needs to be done.

That last line seem to be everywhere this morning just as it was after Manchester the other week.

The issue of course is nobody agrees what any solutions might be. Obviously it's far from straightforward. And every time something happens, the arguments between left and right about what should be done just become more entrenched.

What we desperately need is good leadership, across the political and governing bodies, and police / security bodies to guide this debate towards some workable policy. Do we have that or any sign of that on the horizon? I'm not sure.

Reports this morning suggest the police responded and had the perpetrators dead in 8 minutes of the incident occurring. Consider that the Met Police is the best funded, best equipped, most numerous police force in the country. So giving police countrywide more of that seems demonstrably a sensible idea as a starting point.

A way to promote the recruitment of British Muslim officers and promote engagement with Britain's muslim communities in a successful, fair, non confrontational way? I know the current Prevent policy is an area of debate and dispute. How can it be improved then? Thats another discussion probably more productive than some of the hyperbole.

 

[The Eyes of Self Actual]

and eventually, coming back to bite us in Europe.

How would they get in...

BTW, the phrase "that's what the terrorists want" is a horrid phrase.
All lies to make sure we "carry on as normal".

They want what is written in their holy books.
Nothing else.

 

[Redfox]

If we had sent ground troops to Syria and Iraq when ISIS was first being formed back in 2013/14 and killed their leaders, then none of this radicalising shit would of found its way over here and there would not of been any mass immigration from into Europe either.

But no back then we had wimpy useless leaders like Obama and Cameron who thought that trusting and handing weapons over to so called rebel groups was the best solution.

It's the same with Libya too where ISIS is now strong, we helped get rid of Gaddafi and then just left the country in a mess, giving ISIS the opportunity to set up a base there.

Now ISIS has a global network and its all really thanks to Tony fucking Blair and George Bush. Greedy bastards wanting more oil and not doing their homework before taking us into a pointless war with the excuse of removing a baddy dictator who turned out had no weapons of mass destruction so was no threat to us.
That was the beginning of it all and both of those two war criminal c*** are walking free and acting as if it has nothing to do with them.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

A way to promote the recruitment of British Muslim officers and promote engagement with Britain's muslim communities in a successful, fair, non confrontational way? I know the current Prevent policy is an area of debate and dispute. How can it be improved then? Thats another discussion probably more productive than some of the hyperbole.

What is the purpose of terrorism? I'm asking in general - rather than related to this or to Muslims. And I'm specifically restricting discussion to attacks on civilians rather than guerrilla attacks on infrastructure or military targets.

I would argue it's twofold. The first (and simplest) reason is terrorism as a reprisal - as tit-for-tat retaliation. It's frequently usually used in asymmetric warfare to bring home the reality of the actions of an army in a war that may not have significantly affected civilian life and in inter-communal warfare. It tends not to be a successful tactic as it simply escalates a cycle of killing and does little to undermine public confidence in a war.

The second purpose is propaganda of the deed. Extremist political projects - or in ISIS case, radical millenarian cults - have often used propaganda of the deed for a variety of reasons.

The principle one is to undermine dialogue or collaboration between moderate elements of belligerent parties - assassinating a factory boss' son during a strike would draw a predictable response from management - to harden their position and seek to break the strike with force rather than compromise, and so such an attack might turn a small industrial dispute into a prolonged, more wide-ranging strike or uprising.

Thus the position of factions seeking collaboration or dialogue is undermined. The state has employed agent provocateurs since forever to also carry out this function and undermine the possibility of political movements achieving their goals.

With that in mind, how can it be applied to yesterday? Firstly, I think, the correct response is not to panic. I feel like the way 24 hour news media works feeds into a cycle that generates an enormous amount of attention and speculation. It's in masked contrast to the reaction of most Londoners I know who mostly take this sort of thing in their stride.

The second thing is not to react with demands for mass arrests, crackdowns on civil liberties, racial profiling, suppression of dissent and a culture of suspicion as that's exactly the response was intended to engender.

I think that while the world is a cruel, unequal and dangerous place, terrorism will be a constant - whether we censor whatsapp or not. How we react to it is the thing we control - do we make it more dangerous and crueller or do we do everything we can to build a kinder, more equal world.

 

[.V.]

Can it be called terrorism when the attack only serves to strengthen the serving government on the eve of an election?

With all the cuts to the police in the last 7 years I'm not entirely sure that it does.

 

[Abertawe]

With all the cuts to the police in the last 7 years I'm not entirely sure that it does.

£50?

 

[Nilsson]

What a terrible state this country is in.

I'd consider myself a fairly liberal person but these regressive leftist types are truly a danger to themselves. They're more concerned with showing faux outrage at some idiots reactive racist nonsense than they are at acknowledging that there is a deep problem with Muslim communities in this country. I dread to think what it's going to take for some of these people to wake up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...evealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq
"23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers"
"About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services."

And to let these people return to the country after visiting places like Libya is madness.

 

[Aber gas]

"Regressive leftist" oh do fuck off.

 

[Nilsson]

"Regressive leftist" oh do fuck off.

Sums them up perfectly imho.

 

[JoshBCFC]

How would they get in...

BTW, the phrase "that's what the terrorists want" is a horrid phrase.
All lies to make sure we "carry on as normal".

They want what is written in their holy books.
Nothing else.

I was thinking they'd be able to take over one of the Middle East countries (Afghanistan, Syria, along those lines), but, i'm not sure if that's too likely. They don't want what is written in their holy books: for some reason I doubt it says "kill a bunch of innocent people because they don't have the same beliefs than you". And if it did, they'd want power, so they could then achieve what is written in their holy book easier.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I'd consider myself a fairly liberal person but these regressive leftist types are truly a danger to themselves. They're more concerned with showing faux outrage at some idiots reactive racist nonsense than they are at acknowledging that there is a deep problem with Muslim communities in this country. I dread to think what it's going to take for some of these people to wake up.

You're spouting nonsense about things no-one is saying. I think everyone wants to live in a society where these acts of terrorism can't happen. But the right-wing, security state, us-versus-them response is not making "us" any safer particularly when coupled with a foreign policy that has an ambiguous relationship towards jihadi groups.

 

[Aber gas]

Sums them up perfectly imho.

Tbh it's a Sunday and I could do without sorting fuckwits but since you're being persistent. What's "faux" about being outraged by hate crimes? Is it suddenly alright to indulge in a spot of racist violence because you're feeling a bit scared?
Are you suggesting it's not possible to be concerned by terrorist threat and the outcomes? Just because you can only hold one thought in your mind at once doesn't mean everyone else can't.
"Regressive Leftist" for anyone who disagrees with your simplified and reductive "take" on something you probably know fuck all about. It's lazy and assumes a lot about the people who disagree with you.

 

[Stringy]

What a terrible state this country is in.

I'd consider myself a fairly liberal person but these regressive leftist types are truly a danger to themselves. They're more concerned with showing faux outrage at some idiots reactive racist nonsense than they are at acknowledging that there is a deep problem with Muslim communities in this country. I dread to think what it's going to take for some of these people to wake up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...evealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq
"23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers"
"About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services."

And to let these people return to the country after visiting places like Libya is madness.

I disagree with this.

They absolutely do want terrorism to stop. However, they see the opposite argument - that you should be hardline - as one which alienates others and increases rather than halts the chance of radicalisation.

I read a book once. I can't remember the name of it but it argued that every time you kill a terrorist you create more terrorists by alienating their friends and family. On a lesser scale, it's a model which explains simply to me the role of intolerance in fuelling the arguments of your enemy. To this end, being involved in conflicts abroad, any further than humanitarian assistance alienates the population. In the same way, hardline policies at home furthers the division and turns others into outsiders.

I utterly deplore terrorism. But I deplore all extremists, not just Islamist ones - and I think labelling this as a phenomenon that is isolated to one community is wrong, even if on the face of it seems that the recent terrorist acts are claimed by Islamic extremists.

 

[Redfox]

What a terrible state this country is in.

I'd consider myself a fairly liberal person but these regressive leftist types are truly a danger to themselves. They're more concerned with showing faux outrage at some idiots reactive racist nonsense than they are at acknowledging that there is a deep problem with Muslim communities in this country. I dread to think what it's going to take for some of these people to wake up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...evealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq
"23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers"
"About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services."

And to let these people return to the country after visiting places like Libya is madness.

Knowing us we'd probably let those 23,000 extremists get together and hand them military grade weapons and tanks so they can take us over.

 

[Nilsson]

You're spouting nonsense about things no-one is saying. I think everyone wants to live in a society where these acts of terrorism can't happen. But the right-wing, security state, us-versus-them response is not making "us" any safer.

What is no one saying?

The left is in a diabolical place right now. I find it amazing that so many lefties feel the need to defend Islam so vehemently at every turn. A large amount of Muslims in this country dislike the gays and woman as much as any far-right group.

Tbh it's a Sunday and I could do without sorting fuckwits but since you're being persistent. What's "faux" about being outraged by hate crimes? Is it suddenly alright to indulge in a spot of racist violence because you're feeling a bit scared?
Are you suggesting it's not possible to be concerned by terrorist threat and the outcomes? Just because you can only hold one thought in your mind at once doesn't mean everyone else can't.
"Regressive Leftist" for anyone who disagrees with your simplified and reductive "take" on something you probably know fuck all about. It's lazy and assumes a lot about the people who disagree with you.

Cool insults. You're a prime example of the "regressive left" and part of the problem. Have a good day.

I disagree with this.

They absolutely do want terrorism to stop. However, they see the opposite argument - that you should be hardline - as one which alienates others and increases rather than halts the chance of radicalisation.

It's not about being hardline or alienating people. It's about not denying the fact that there is problem with a specific group of people in this country as that's only going to make things worse and is ultimately halting any potential progress Islam has of doing a better job of integrating into our culture.

Do you have an opinion on the quotes from the Times article I posted? It's getting to the point where enough is enough now.

 

[Abertawe]

Knowing us we'd probably let those 23,000 extremists get together and hand them military grade weapons and tanks

Errr that's quite literally what's already going on.

 

[Abertawe]

What is no one saying?

The left is in a diabolical place right now. I find it amazing that so many lefties feel the need to defend Islam so vehemently at every turn. A large amount of Muslims in this country dislike the gays and woman as much as any far-right group.


Cool insults. You're a prime example of the "regressive left" and part of the problem. Have a good day.


It's not about being hardline or alienating people. It's about not denying the fact that there is problem with a specific group of people in this country as that's only going to make things worse and is ultimately halting any potential progress Islam has of doing a better job of integrating into our culture.

Do you have an opinion on the quotes from the Times article I posted? It's getting to the point where enough is enough now.

Who has allowed this to occur?

 

[Jockney]

Sums them up perfectly imho.

Stop exploiting people's grief you despicable wanker.

 

[Aber gas]

What is no one saying?

The left is in a diabolical place right now. I find it amazing that so many lefties feel the need to defend Islam so vehemently at every turn. A large amount of Muslims in this country dislike the gays and woman as much as any far-right group.


Cool insults. You're a prime example of the "regressive left" and part of the problem. Have a good day.


It's not about being hardline or alienating people. It's about not denying the fact that there is problem with a specific group of people in this country as that's only going to make things worse and is ultimately halting any potential progress Islam has of doing a better job of integrating into our culture.

Do you have an opinion on the quotes from the Times article I posted? It's getting to the point where enough is enough now.

"The gays"

 

[Aber gas]

"Lefties"

 

[Aber gas]

"Enough is a enough"

 

[Murphy]

Terrorist raids in Barking and Billericay this morning...so close to home.

 

[Stevencc]

Anecdotally speaking I'm noticing a marked difference in the emotional response to this latest attack. I've noticed less desensitised reactions and have been seeing a lot more of an end of the tether, angered backlash.

I don't know how widespread this is but if it is indicative of a wider feeling then things could get ugly*, quickly.

*Uglier.

 

[blade1889]

"The gays"

There's one of them down our road!

It's scary times, with cars being used as weapons it makes it so much harder to stop with a presumably much smaller 'paper trail' for the intelligence agencies to track.

 

[Jockney]

Drunk, emotional immediate reactions aside, I'd rather we move on now and look to the coming week of campaigning. Some of the worst stuff that can come from these attacks is the political backlash. Expect to see armed police in every commercial area of London for at least a week. Expect to see your least favourite people use this as an opportunity to advocate for ethnic cleansing.

 

[Stevencc]

Drunk, emotional immediate reactions aside, I'd rather we move on now and look to the coming week of campaigning. Some of the worst stuff that can come from these attacks is the political backlash. Expect to see armed police in every commercial area of London for at least a week. Expect to see your least favourite people use this as an opportunity to advocate for ethnic cleansing.

Which will almost certainly be almost entirely focused on the latest wave of attacks and consist of a point-scoring, shit-throwing exercise on both sides.

Unfortunately I think it is the right side of the political spectrum that gains the most in the aftermath of events like this, too.

 

[Abertawe]

Corbyn needs to take on the conservative & new labours failings both domestically & abroad as to why we supposedly have 20,000 jihadis on our streets or he will lose.

 

[SkyBlueElephant]

The world is broken, I don't know how we move past this but it's clear whatever we are doing is not effective and it's escalating.

I don't want to hear meaningless words on how we will stand united, and stay strong and go about our normal live. What does this actually mean? It seems it means we do nothing and wait like sitting ducks for the next attack. Nothing about what is happening is a normal. Another favourite the world leaders trot out is we won't let them win, well if this is terror losing then what's the point in it all?

Simply trying to survive and prevention isn't enough.