Iran v Portugal, 25th June, 7pm(GMT)

Boletus Edulis

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The Iranian owners of our local kebab house won’t be happy. Guess my lad won’t get extra large this week!
 

Bilo

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But that doesn’t explain why a near identical handball var decision wasn’t given earlier in the match against Iran — and if the SA interpretation is that charitable then why did it need four mins to reach a decision?
Because even with the most generous of interpretations, it's a very, very close call to say the least.

I'm no expert on interpretations of the handball rule in different federations, I just know it's much stricter elsewhere than in Europe (and comparing to Sweden), England in particular. So I thought it was worth adding since no one did.
 

Chris FGR

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Got a bit lively that, tremendous wumming from both teams, the ref and VAR. Good stuff.

This World Cup definitely isn't dull.

Great effort from Iran, they really made both Spain and Portugal sweat. A bit more luck and they'd have won the group.
 

Renegade

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There is something about the way the VAR playback that nudges a ref towards giving a penalty or a card.
I think it's the slow motion that is catching him out. In full speed, neither of the penalties given were penalties, nor should he have given Ronaldo a yellow card as he was being impeded by the defender. All of the VAR screens I've seen have shown slow motion replays, there should be a mix of it and real time.

Carlos Queiroz was more embarrassing than his players appealing for VAR and inciting the crowd. I'm very happy Portugal went through after all of that, would have been a shambles. People will blame VAR, but that was just a referee completely out of his depth, as someone else alluded to.
 

Bilo

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In the game we didn't watch, a very decisive decision (incorrect offside call) was overturned by VAR.

Interpretations one way or another, every wrong decision corrected is a good thing. Regards, loyal supporter of most fucked team by VAR so far in this competition imvho etc
 

Bilo

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I think it's the slow motion that is catching him out. In full speed, neither of the penalties given were penalties, nor should he have given Ronaldo a yellow card as he was being impeded by the defender. All of the VAR screens I've seen have shown slow motion replays, there should be a mix of it and real time.

Carlos Queiroz was more embarrassing than his players appealing for VAR and inciting the crowd. I'm very happy Portugal went through after all of that, would have been a shambles. People will blame VAR, but that was just a terrible referee completely out of his depth, as someone else alluded to.
While this holds some merit I suppose, isn't a reasonable alternative explanation that we're all used to every decision being made in full speed, so when the book is actually applied as it should it seems generally very, very harsh? As in, none of us ever read the rules really, so we understand them by how they've been applied over the years. Whereas when the ref is standing there it's probably a lot more literal. For example, if your elbow goes into the face of an opponent I'm fairly sure the fact that he's impeded by the defender has nothing to do with it. You're responsible for your own body.

The Swedish public service employ Jonas Eriksson, recently retired world class referee (think Howard Webb but very likable). He hasn't disagreed with a single VAR decision so far, except for the odd "this could go either way".
 

Renegade

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While this holds some merit I suppose, isn't a reasonable alternative explanation that we're all used to every decision being made in full speed, so when the book is actually applied as it should it seems generally very, very harsh? As in, none of us ever read the rules really, so we understand them by how they've been applied over the years. Whereas when the ref is standing there it's probably a lot more literal. For example, if your elbow goes into the face of an opponent I'm fairly sure the fact that he's impeded by the defender has nothing to do with it. You're responsible for your own body.

The Swedish public service employ Jonas Eriksson, recently retired world class referee (think Howard Webb but very likable). He hasn't disagreed with a single VAR decision so far, except for the odd "this could go either way".
Not sure how VAR works when it comes to awarding yellows, Ronaldo was being fouled by the player before he tried to get through him, it was a very soft yellow even in slow motion for me. Should they not be considering the foul before the foul as well, rather than showing the referee a very slow motion clip of Ronaldo trying to get through a player? Everything looks worse in slow motion. It can clear up many decisions, but unless you have the real time clip as well, it skews reality in a physical sport.

In real time, Ronaldo lost control of the ball for the first penalty. In slow motion, it looks like he was cynically taken out. It's more of a 50/50 decision than it appears in slow motion.
 

Bilo

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Not sure how VAR works when it comes to awarding yellows, Ronaldo was being fouled by the player before he tried to get through him, it was a very soft yellow even in slow motion for me. Should they not be considering the foul before the foul as well, rather than showing the referee a very slow motion clip of Ronaldo trying to get through a player? Everything looks worse in slow motion. It can clear up many decisions, but unless you have the real time clip as well, it skews reality.
Not in the case of violent conduct, which is what elbow to the face borders to. I agree with the decision that it was a yellow (let common sense prevail etc), but that's pretty generous to Ronaldo by the book. If you elbow someone in the face, be it fifteen seconds after the whistle has gone, after you've been fouled or not, by the book it's a straight red. You simply can't do it.

I don't know, I'm struggling to agree with that the best referees in the world can't take slow motion into account. I trust them to stand there, know the book they've lived by for years, and make a more correct call then they can in real time. I don't think slow motion comes into it; rather than there's so much shit you usually get away with that you don't now. And that feels harsh.
 

Bilo

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Haha salty or what?
Hah! Not salty at all, but it's worth adding that I do from this ivary tower know very well how it feels to be completely fucked by VAR.
 

Renegade

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Disagree on the slow motion bit, though I've had this view for years when it comes to analysing incidents (usually poor punditry), but I've been fine with the vast majority of decisions made at this World Cup. In slow motion a player will look more in control of the football than they actually are and fouls will look more cynical. The huge number of penalties has been justified and are a good thing, I don't think this referee was ready for this. And if he is a legitimately good referee, he wasn't prepared for VAR. This game was an exception in my view in regards to harsh decisions.

Not in the case of violent conduct, which is what elbow to the face borders to. I agree with the decision that it was a yellow (let common sense prevail etc), but that's pretty generous to Ronaldo by the book. If you elbow someone in the face, be it fifteen seconds after the whistle has gone, after you've been fouled or not, by the book it's a straight red. You simply can't do it.

Don't think it was violent conduct. He's shrugging the player out of the way to get past him, he's not intending to elbow the player in the face. Ronaldo was clearly ticked off by being cynically impeded a second earlier so does it a bit too roughly. As a stand alone incident, he deserves his yellow I suppose. Think the context should matter though.

Would have been nice if the referee was able to judge the player feigning injury, desperately trying to get Ronaldo sent off. Or Quaresma doing the same earlier in the half.
 
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dedwardp

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Not in the case of violent conduct, which is what elbow to the face borders to. I agree with the decision that it was a yellow (let common sense prevail etc), but that's pretty generous to Ronaldo by the book. If you elbow someone in the face, be it fifteen seconds after the whistle has gone, after you've been fouled or not, by the book it's a straight red. You simply can't do it.

There is a clear difference between violent conduct and accidental contact.
 

Chris FGR

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Never a red, disgraceful play-acting which there was loads of throughout the game. Should use VAR to stamp that out more then anything.

So Portugal v Uruguay next then, that should be a nice easy one utter shitfest to referee. Looking forward to it.
 

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Handball always seems to be debated all the time doesn't it - think that is part of the trouble.

Generally that isn't a clear and obvious penalty..

One ref will give what another doesn't.
 

Benji

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I fear that this World Cup is going to be the first World Cup where nothing matters any more. VAR is honing in on the rules of the game and picking at the threads. There is no right or wrong, no joy or sadness, no black or white. Only grey. Everything is grey and nothing means anything anymore.
 

Nilsson

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I thought VAR was only going to be used to overturn "clear and obvious" mistakes.

No chance that was "clear and obvious". His arm wasn't in an unnatural position as he was jumping up, it wasn't deliberate and it was headed onto his arm from an incredibly close angle.

It's a shame such a ridiculous decision will have a massive impact on the tournament as now Spain have a far easier tie in the next round.
 

Liam_SWFC

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VAR has proven time and time again to be flawed, let's just bin it before it gets anymore embarrassing.
 

Super_horns

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VAR has proven time and time again to be flawed, let's just bin it before it gets anymore embarrassing.

Or get better refs ?

I am sure most would have not given a penalty for that .

On the flip side Spain had a goal rightly given after it had been ruled offside .
 

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Good group, that. Iran are not a bad side and have done themselves proud with their showings. If only the lad had stuck that chance away at the end, would’ve been hell on. Fine margins but full credit to them, pushed Spain and Portugal all the way.
 

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Jesus, Quaresma rolling back the years with that finish. What a hit.

He bloody loves those outside of the foot shots, great goal.
 

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If Portugal go out now against Uruguay they have a right to be absolutely fuming at that decision by the ref.

Apparently Egypt made a complaint against this referee, I'm sure Portugal will now as well
 

Chris FGR

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I think what's great with VAR is how seamlessly it's been brought in, you would hardly know this was in effect a trial run. At a World Cup.

What would make it even better would be if the VAR hut with the 4 officials in it was next to the pitch so everyone could crowd in there and argue about the decisions.
 
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dedwardp

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On the flip side Spain had a goal rightly given after it had been ruled offside .

Technology works great where the issue is black and white i.e. offsides or goal line technology. It's either in or it isn't, it's either offside or it is not. You can't argue with those decisions so it is easy to get them right.
 

shoddycollins

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I'm not sure the referee is the one who should be getting all the stick over last night's match. On all the contentious calls, he made the right decision (or at least a decision he could have easily stuck to and defended) and then changed it after VAR.

I just wonder what the power dynamic is between the referee on the pitch and the video assistants, are they the same kind of senior referees who also review referees' performances after the match? In theory they should be subservient to the referee but if they are drawn from a group of more senior and experienced refs then it could be like having your supervisor sat next to you as you make a decision and then saying over your shoulder 'are you sure? do you maybe want to look at that again?'.

This might be how it works already but I think each referee should have their own team of video assistants who they stick with in the same way they do with their assistants, who they trust and who they view as assistants who will offer useful input rather than superiors watching their every move.
 

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