Is there any point having a youth setup in this hellhole?

[Soup Ladle]

At Pools there's been a lot of talk about having our youth academy scrapped next year due to the fact we won't have parachute payments and youth funding being stopped. What's been going on here for the last week or two basically forces Raj Singh's hand into closing down our youth setup until we ever get back to the league. We've been taken the piss out of by a Prem club.

We had a 17 year old defender on our books called Luca Murphy. He'd never made a first appearance but been on the bench a few times. The club said he wasn't physically ready for games week in/out in this division. A lot of higher level clubs were sniffing around him but no firm bids came in. He went out on trial a couple of times but no firm interest. In January he went to Fulham on trial and they rejected him. Since he came back, Murphy has had his head turned and rejected a pro deal with us. We reckon Fulham told him to bide his time, reject a contract and they'll pick him up for nowt. They then come in and snap him up on a free and are refusing to pay us any compo even though the kid's been with us since he was 9 or something. If we were FL, they'd have to pay compensation but because we're here they're not.

What Fulham have done is within the rules but snidey as fuck. Considering they spent 100m on finishing 2nd last in the Prem you'd think they could give us something. I'm not talking millions but adequate compo for the time spent training him and the registration for the player. Sheffield United are now on to one of our 16 year olds but apparently have told Pools they'll pay an amount per year we had him. That's just proper conduct.

It makes you think, why the hell bother giving kids a chance in the game if this is what's gonna happen? The NL give no protection to clubs training their own and let's not even start on FFP, we all know it'd be a much different league if that was brought in....

Hopefully the money we'll save on youth funding will be spent on getting us up next season so we can operate in a set up that protects its members and has some protection for fair competition on and off the pitch.

 

[Chief Rocka]

I'd of been dead against us closing it down until I realised we're building these prospects up, sticking in time and money from the age of 8 or 9 and they're just waltzing out the door at 16 to the big boys for nowt, Singh said it's costing us £180,000 a season to run, it just isn't feasible sadly, especially without any parachute payments next season, shut it down until we make it back to the league.

 

[Mark kavanagh]

We scrapped ours for just that reason, real shame as it had produced some amazing players irons, brannon, koumas, Thomas, Murphy, simonsen, hill,power, McFarland, coppell, dean, and current west ham full back Aaron cresswell.

The poolies are spot on the bosman ruling has been awful for lower league clubs we got nothing for cookie and will get nothing for Norwood in June.... feel for ya lads it's all about the big clubs now

 

[Chief Rocka]

It rankles with me cos we've built up and sold on some cracking players over the years for what we consider to be mega money, combined Tommy Miller, Adam Boyd and Luke James made us close to £2m in transfer fees alone.

 

[Minstermen central]

We cancelled ours at the start of this season.
We still have an academy but not cat 3 anymore,kids from 8 till 16 have to pay to train and play in junior premier league on a Saturday,which means they can still play for grassroots teams on a Sunday and are free to move to any other academies with no compensation.

 

[Farleigh]

I don't believe in the concept of commercial companies "owning" 17 year olds or demanding money before they can work elsewhere. If that business model no longer works, then so be it. It's not great for the vast majority who will never make it. But that does open up other opportunities. There must be dozens of young players stuck in Premier League academies who will never get a game. Many would welcome the chance of building a full time career in the non league game.

 

[Luke Imp]

We had a decision to make as Hartlepool are at the minute.

Our Youth Academy is run by a separate Board of Directors to the main football club and the main football club used to contribute £27k a season to the running of it whilst we were in the FL. When our parachute payments stopped, the Club stopped their contribution because we needed that money for the first team and the decision was made to keep it running but fundraise all the running costs.

They worked out they could run our academy on skeleton staff for £50k a year but that relied on fundraising events, volunteers in terms of drivers for their games and donations from local sports firms for kits, balls, etc. Chris Moyses (came through our youth system many, many years ago, was on the LCFC Board and was our manager for 18 months) donated some money and that gave them some breathing space for a short while but they still had to fundraise heavily over the remaining 4 years we were in the NL.

Lower league academies are more of a link to the community than a money making one. Personally, I'm glad we did what we did. Closing it and then re-opening in it on promotion would have been very difficult. The amount of work that has to be done building an academy back up after promotion is massive, and that's from a walking start with a few foundations already in place. It'd take years to recover from a standing start (as Notts County might be finding because they closed theirs and then decided to re-open it IIRC).

Bit of a dirty trick by Fulham if that's the case. We were lucky because anyone who took young players off us in our time in the NL (Villa, Birmingham, Leicester) usually paid a small fee, which they didn't have to but did out of goodwill because they've been taking players off us for years. That then went into the pot to help keep it running.

 

[Razzmachaz]

Despite selling on numerous players in recent years from our youth set up we are in the same boat and our youth academy future depends on the outcome of this season. If we are in the football league I believe it will continue. If not it's probably going, certainly in it's current guise.

 

[Master D]

We've still got ours and have been paying costs for almost a decade down here after the funding stopped. Keeping it open is in the tradition of the club and expect it'll remain that way. I think there'd be a local backlash if we didn't have youth teams etc.

Not sure if it's the right figure but our accounts for last year suggested it cost about £170k to run our Centre of Excellence.

 

[BeesKnees]

Ours is key and more than half our first team squad came through the youth set up. I would say it's definitely worth it for us.

Relegation has put paid to a lot of development that was planned. Not sure if the indoor 3G will be built unless we get promoted.

 

[Minstermen central]

Academy at this level are a luxury sometimes you find a jewel but mainly run at a loss.any good prospect gets pinched anyway.
Looks like we will probably get our last big payment soon from academy.Ben Godfrey of Norwich City played for England U21 the other night,Manchester United are looking at 10 million bid plus lots of other interests,we are meant to have a 10% sell on clause.
For me would close it till or if ever get back in league.

 

[#Beebot]

Our 14/15 youth team was class and three players from that side are now important players in our first team. Two others are now at EFL clubs. We had Mason-Clark come through the youth team a season or two after as well.

As BeesKnees mentioned relegation has downgraded it somewhat but there seem to be no plans to scrap it, the infrastructure is pretty extensive. In 12/13 when we were relegated we had a Cat 2 academy and a U23 side playing in a league with Prem/Champ teams, which wasn't really sustainable. We're Cat 3 now and I expect us to stay that way for a while but I think there are plans to upgrade again if we are promoted.

 

[chief]

We've still got ours and have been paying costs for almost a decade down here after the funding stopped. Keeping it open is in the tradition of the club and expect it'll remain that way. I think there'd be a local backlash if we didn't have youth teams etc.

Not sure if it's the right figure but our accounts for last year suggested it cost about £170k to run our Centre of Excellence.

We're getting thrown out of the Youth Alliance mind if we don't go up soon.

So we're getting thrown out of the Youth Alliance soon.

 

[Soup Ladle]

I don't believe in the concept of commercial companies "owning" 17 year olds or demanding money before they can work elsewhere. If that business model no longer works, then so be it. It's not great for the vast majority who will never make it. But that does open up other opportunities. There must be dozens of young players stuck in Premier League academies who will never get a game. Many would welcome the chance of building a full time career in the non league game.

I think that's exactly what the club are trying to focus on as evidenced by a couple of recent signings.

We had a decision to make as Hartlepool are at the minute.

Our Youth Academy is run by a separate Board of Directors to the main football club and the main football club used to contribute £27k a season to the running of it whilst we were in the FL. When our parachute payments stopped, the Club stopped their contribution because we needed that money for the first team and the decision was made to keep it running but fundraise all the running costs.

They worked out they could run our academy on skeleton staff for £50k a year but that relied on fundraising events, volunteers in terms of drivers for their games and donations from local sports firms for kits, balls, etc. Chris Moyses (came through our youth system many, many years ago, was on the LCFC Board and was our manager for 18 months) donated some money and that gave them some breathing space for a short while but they still had to fundraise heavily over the remaining 4 years we were in the NL.

Lower league academies are more of a link to the community than a money making one. Personally, I'm glad we did what we did. Closing it and then re-opening in it on promotion would have been very difficult. The amount of work that has to be done building an academy back up after promotion is massive, and that's from a walking start with a few foundations already in place. It'd take years to recover from a standing start (as Notts County might be finding because they closed theirs and then decided to re-open it IIRC).

Bit of a dirty trick by Fulham if that's the case. We were lucky because anyone who took young players off us in our time in the NL (Villa, Birmingham, Leicester) usually paid a small fee, which they didn't have to but did out of goodwill because they've been taking players off us for years. That then went into the pot to help keep it running.

Good post. Our decision makers would do well to see your ideas on how to keep it going in a stripped down way.

Personally I don't want us to scrap it, as you say it's a link to the community and would be further evidence of eroding away from FL status but if RS scraps it, I totally get it. If only a bit of that money can be put to building a strong side next year, it'll be worth it. Not sure how much of it would be given to transfers though. We still have a few 'legacy' issues from the cowboys who got us here. We're apparently getting a bigger budget next season so maybe the decision to scrap the youth setup's already been made and plans for next season are already formalised. Is Singh that strategic though? Time will tell

 

[ForzaCounty]

If we were FL, they'd have to pay compensation but because we're here they're not.

Even then, it would be a lot less than it would have been before the PL blackmailed the FL into adopting EPPP. We shut down our Centre of Excellence at the time 'cos of it, as did many others.

Youth football in this country has been decimated by Brooking's masterplan, but the recent successes of England youth teams has papered over the cracks. Nobody important suffers though, only us lower level clubs.

 

[The Terminator]

As already mentioned, we've announced that if we go up our Academy will stay open for at least one more season, stay down and it will close.

We will operate a youth team with a small squad of 16-18 year olds even if the academy closes next season.

Martin Ling recently said basically what everyone else has said on this - The bigger clubs can steal anyone not on a pro contract for nothing and it defeats the point of us sometimes working with all the various different age groups, only for the better players to go elsewhere anyway.

A big shame because 5 of our current squad have come through our academy and we've sold a few more down the years for some money or they've gone on to have decent careers in the lower leagues.

 

[DarkSithLord]

I think its very possible . We have our own at Alfreton
However it has to run well and be seccussfuly.
It has to play at a compeitive lge. The Notts Yth or Sheff Vans Hire.

We are in the nee Central Mids Div South. Much but really to run a successfully team they need to be tested out.

Alfreton have some immenesely talatented but the paytway hasnt been there with consisent chance of manager.

Players like Morgan Brough and Kieron Hinchley need another look.
So yes it can certaining work but you may need the right ingredients

 

[Soup Ladle]

I think its very possible . We have our own at Alfreton
However it has to run well and be seccussfuly.
It has to play at a compeitive lge. The Notts Yth or Sheff Vans Hire.

We are in the nee Central Mids Div South. Much but really to run a successfully team they need to be tested out.

Alfreton have some immenesely talatented but the paytway hasnt been there with consisent chance of manager.

Players like Morgan Brough and Kieron Hinchley need another look.
So yes it can certaining work but you may need the right ingredients

Err translation please?

 

[DarkSithLord]

Err translation please?

Sorry! I been in the hospital these last few days and still recovering? You asked if it wss viable? There is my answer with the right incredigents

 

[Soup Ladle]

Okay

Get well soon.

 

[Joseph Smith]

Sounds from the Pools case that it is, pointless, for most clubs to run an ambitious youth set up. Time and time again, bigger clubs can grab the players for free or a nominal fee, loan them out and the sell them for millions.
As for our club, we are run as a CIC and have gone into having a ton of youth, womens, disability teams. This brings in FA bursaries, and we have had a few leave us for pro outfits and go with a good luck blessing. Change our model and I can see why people see the futility in a strict business model. Perhaps a standard 20% sell on for any player sold before their 24th birthday to a selling club that had them for over a year before they were 18. That way it would encourage clubs to nurture, in a true way their own lads. They would still go for other talent, most of which would still be discarded, but they would likely be happy to do so even with the 20% loss of profit, but be more mindful rather than hoover and gobble, disregarding the club and young man from where they obtained him.