League 2 General Chat Thread

[Stagat]

... in the Conference, albeit yours still dropped to 3k at one stage, Mansfield 2k, Wrexham 3k - so the arse falls out of all attendances when you get down there whoever you are

Lincoln, Grimsby, Wrexham and Mansfield have all found 'new' fans with increased attendances and season ticket holders when it's all going swimmingly with a bit of momentum but that's the nature of football. The difficult part is keeping them engaged when it goes into reverse or plateaus!

I think Mansfield deserve credit for increasing the fanbase on a sustained basis for years now despite being in the same division for 10+ years and that includes some crazy fuckups.

TBF Luke we were getting like 2k - 3k attendances in L2 in the mid-00s during the Carlton Palmer era and until we went down a few years later so we didn't need to be in the Conference to get crap crowds! We just had to be crap and the division didn't matter.

On your second point and to echo what Conker said, I've been impressed too with how our foundation so to speak has grown in recent years - with no promotion in 10 years now - with average attendances raight up and season ticket sales this year the best they've ever been, I think.

Same with Lincoln and Grimsby too as you say, and others, because we've been more on the up than on the down in recent years BUT I will say this too - no evidence for it, just what I feel - but it feels like lower league football attendances are just up across the board.

Teams that are treading water or even doing slightly worse season on season, just seems like more people are going to lower league footy games these days. Which is brilliant, obviously.

 

[Conker]

TBF Luke we were getting like 2k - 3k attendances in L2 in the mid-00s during the Carlton Palmer era and until we went down a few years later so we didn't need to be in the Conference to get crap crowds! We just had to be crap and the division didn't matter.

On your second point and to echo what Conker said, I've been impressed too with how our foundation so to speak has grown in recent years - with no promotion in 10 years now - with average attendances raight up and season ticket sales this year the best they've ever been, I think.

Same with Lincoln and Grimsby too as you say, and others, because we've been more on the up than on the down in recent years BUT I will say this too - no evidence for it, just what I feel - but it feels like lower league football attendances are just up across the board.

Teams that are treading water or even doing slightly worse season on season, just seems like more people are going to lower league footy games these days. Which is brilliant, obviously.

Great points, and as with all teams it’s important to consider what the clubs were going through at those times. I recall a year or two under Keith Curle in early/mid 00s where crowds greatly improved but we had a good attacking minded side with local talent.

To think we were owned by Keith Haslam and managed by Carlton Palmer - it was a miracle anyone turned up, and we owe so much to Radford considering the club is now in the best place it’s ever been in my own lifetime and comfortably at that.

 

[northstandexile]

Cheers.

Yeah Jojo Wollacott and Jonny Williams were the players we got money from FIFA for. Wollacott had gone to Charlton and didn't even make the World Cup as he got injured, and Jonny Williams didn't play one minute of Wales awful campaign. Still, approximately £80k is very welcome.

Bloody hell, Boreham Wood are on that list of FA payments.

They must be massive,

 

[AdamStag]

I agree.

However, the list compiled by myself below is correct.

1. Bradford City
2. Swindon Town
3. Wimbledon
4. Stockport County
5. Tranmere Rovers
6. Wrexham
7. Notts County
8. Doncaster Rovers
9. Gillingham
10. Grimsby Town
11. MK Dons
12. Walsall
13. Crewe Alexandra
14. Mansfield Town
15. Colchester United
16. Newport County
17. Barrow
18. Morecambe
19. Crawley Town
20. Accrington Stanley
21. Sutton United
22. Forest Green Rover
23. Harrogate Town
24. Salford


*Runs for cover

crewe walsall and grimsby bigger than mansfield

That said i agree with the bradford fan to contradict myself, size of clubs in the 4th division is quality.

 

[AdamStag]

Great points, and as with all teams it’s important to consider what the clubs were going through at those times. I recall a year or two under Keith Curle in early/mid 00s where crowds greatly improved but we had a good attacking minded side with local talent.

To think we were owned by Keith Haslam and managed by Carlton Palmer - it was a miracle anyone turned up, and we owe so much to Radford considering the club is now in the best place it’s ever been in my own lifetime and comfortably at that.

The point about the foundation is spot on, the engagement we’ve had through the youth academy is reaping rewards on and off the pitch, we’ve already had a few players go off to bigger sides and the new fans and families get involved is really promising.

 

[AdamStag]

Is there any plans to sort that monstrosity of a stand down one side of the pitch?

Sure that would allow you to really kick on crowds wise.

Massive debate on it, the problem being is when the ground was redeveloped on the cheap by the previous owner, so if it were done the stand would only hold a thousand or so.

 

[PaulHaddock]

crewe walsall and grimsby bigger than mansfield

That said i agree with the bradford fan to contradict myself, size of clubs in the 4th division is quality.

Aye Colchester can probably stake a claim too tbf

 

[EnglishRed]

Bloody hell, Boreham Wood are on that list of FA payments.

They must be massive,

Benefit of having the Secretary for DCMS (now Deputy PM) as your local MP and personal friend of the Chairman. It's why they got the most Covid money out of everyone in the league relative to their losses (they actually made money).

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

crewe walsall and grimsby bigger than mansfield

That said i agree with the bradford fan to contradict myself, size of clubs in the 4th division is quality.

Mansfield 1 season above League Two in the last 30 years. The three others have had multiple spells in the Championship in that time.

 

[ForzaCounty]

Benefit of having the Secretary for DCMS (now Deputy PM) as your local MP and personal friend of the Chairman. It's why they got the most Covid money out of everyone in the league relative to their losses (they actually made money).

Jim Parmenter's Dover boys also made a profit that season

 

[PuB]

Jim Parmenter's Dover boys also made a profit that season

Very much coincidental that he was on the National League board deciding how it would be divided up too

 

[AdamStag]

Mansfield 1 season above League Two in the last 30 years. The three others have had multiple spells in the Championship in that time.

Even so, just nah. that’s not happening.

 

[AdamStag]

Aye Colchester can probably stake a claim too tbf

fair enough not sure how you’re both matched up.

 

[Stagat]

To think we were owned by Keith Haslam and managed by Carlton Palmer - it was a miracle anyone turned up

I was one of the sad twats that did! Sad in both senses of the word sat up there in the West Stand.

At the risk of belabouring the point and boring people with numbers, I did check our attendances before I posted yesterday and noticed something going a little further back.

My first season watching us was the 01/02 promotion season. Attendances the season before that when we were mid-table were hovering around between 2k and 3k. The first two home games of that promotion season were the same. And then the great Mansfield public realised we were quite good for once and we started pulling in 4k - 5k for the rest of the season. So to be doing that in season tickets alone now is brilliant.

AdamStag you picked up on the 'foundation' I mentioned. I meant it more of the size of the non-fairweather fan base but I think maybe you thought it like the club itself doing well off the pitch? Which I would have to agree with mate. Again this is only anecdotal and not summat I can provide proof of but just the general feeling around the local area is that Stags are a lot more... connected? And popular?

Like everyone talks about seeing Man Utd and Liverpool shirts in whatever small town they live in (too many 80s kids Liverpool fans in Mansfield btw but I digress) but I've never seen more Stags shirts being worn about the place than I have in recent years. I remember in me youth being derided coz I was going to Stags. They're wank, it's boring, don't waste your Saturday etc.

Opposite now. They've managed to get a lot of people coming through the turnstiles that never used to go.

We might be back to square one in ten years with 2k crowds and nobody caring. Who knows. But even with no promotions in the last 10 years they've managed to make it an enjoyable, attractive (if you're from round here) and optimistic football club to follow right now.

It's not unique to us though is it. I think Grimsby are happier than they've been in years with their new owners. Stockport after coming back from the Conference North and looking strong. Wrexham obvs and Notts too. Gills. List goes on. I'm boring myself now.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

I was one of the sad twats that did! Sad in both senses of the word sat up there in the West Stand.

At the risk of belabouring the point and boring people with numbers, I did check our attendances before I posted yesterday and noticed something going a little further back.

My first season watching us was the 01/02 promotion season. Attendances the season before that when we were mid-table were hovering around between 2k and 3k. The first two home games of that promotion season were the same. And then the great Mansfield public realised we were quite good for once and we started pulling in 4k - 5k for the rest of the season. So to be doing that in season tickets alone now is brilliant.

AdamStag you picked up on the 'foundation' I mentioned. I meant it more of the size of the non-fairweather fan base but I think maybe you thought it like the club itself doing well off the pitch? Which I would have to agree with mate. Again this is only anecdotal and not summat I can provide proof of but just the general feeling around the local area is that Stags are a lot more... connected? And popular?

Like everyone talks about seeing Man Utd and Liverpool shirts in whatever small town they live in (too many 80s kids Liverpool fans in Mansfield btw but I digress) but I've never seen more Stags shirts being worn about the place than I have in recent years. I remember in me youth being derided coz I was going to Stags. They're wank, it's boring, don't waste your Saturday etc.

Opposite now. They've managed to get a lot of people coming through the turnstiles that never used to go.

We might be back to square one in ten years with 2k crowds and nobody caring. Who knows. But even with no promotions in the last 10 years they've managed to make it an enjoyable, attractive (if you're from round here) and optimistic football club to follow right now.

It's not unique to us though is it. I think Grimsby are happier than they've been in years with their new owners. Stockport after coming back from the Conference North and looking strong. Wrexham obvs and Notts too. Gills. List goes on. I'm boring myself now.

I think almost every club has been through a cycle where attendances have surged at some point. It's fantastic what Mansfield have done to grow their attendances despite very little on field success when returning to the league.

We were averaging just shy of 8000 in the mid 2000s. We then went into decline and were hamstrung by a majority shareholder siphoning money for his own gain. From 8th in the Championship on NYD in 2005 to 24th in League Two in August 2011 and staring down the non league barrel. Fed up with the decline and consistently poor football, with us being in a relegation battle almost every season, crowds voted with their feet and we were getting between 3K and 4K. A miraculous promotion to L1 saw us grow a bit but we're back to L2 levels again in this division. It'll take significant investment for us to grow to what we were when I was a kid and it's investment I just don't see coming.

Mansfield, despite no promotion in over a decade, clearly win lots of football matches at home and thats why the fans keep coming and they've grown as a club. Most of the other clubs you mentioned have been the beneficiary of big money and thats another way of getting fans into the ground. Stockport and Wrexham were getting a third of what they get at home now not so long ago.

The challenge is when these clubs you mention currently riding the crest of a wave have a disastrous season and crowds inevitably plummet to massive lows. Fans are fickle at our level after all, and some of these new fans are likely to jack it in the moment the going gets tough. It'll be interesting to see what happens if some big spending clubs have an abysmal season in the not too distant future...

 

[Stagat]

I think almost every club has been through a cycle where attendances have surged at some point. It's fantastic what Mansfield have done to grow their attendances despite very little on field success when returning to the league.

We were averaging just shy of 8000 in the mid 2000s. We then went into decline and were hamstrung by a majority shareholder siphoning money for his own gain. From 8th in the Championship on NYD in 2005 to 24th in League Two in August 2011 and staring down the non league barrel. Fed up with the decline and consistently poor football, with us being in a relegation battle almost every season, crowds voted with their feet and we were getting between 3K and 4K. A miraculous promotion to L1 saw us grow a bit but we're back to L2 levels again in this division. It'll take significant investment for us to grow to what we were when I was a kid and it's investment I just don't see coming.

Mansfield, despite no promotion in over a decade, clearly win lots of football matches at home and thats why the fans keep coming and they've grown as a club. Most of the other clubs you mentioned have been the beneficiary of big money and thats another way of getting fans into the ground. Stockport and Wrexham were getting a third of what they get at home now not so long ago.

The challenge is when these clubs you mention currently riding the crest of a wave have a disastrous season and crowds inevitably plummet to massive lows. Fans are fickle at our level after all, and some of these new fans are likely to jack it in the moment the going gets tough. It'll be interesting to see what happens if some big spending clubs have an abysmal season in the not too distant future...

Cheers TNO, appreciate your input mate. Even that "despite very little on field success when returning to the league" bit. Hey man you ain't wrong.

It is interesting though and worth keeping in mind for ourselves what you say about yourselves with that decline after the mid 2000s. Could well happen to us. I ain't naive to that. Hubris. But fingers crossed.

re. your last sentence. I dunno if this is what you were getting at but man I'm wondering how the whole Wrexham story is gonna go when they get another promotion or two. I think they can keep the momentum going in L1 but Championship is a whole different beast innit. Enjoy paying the wages needed to be good in that division, Ryan and the other guy.

And once they reach their level where they a mid-table team for a few seasons (hello the Peter principle) - be that L2 or L1 or Champ - what the fairweather bandwagon fans gonna do then?

 

[AdamStag]

I suppose that’s interesting isn’t it.

Why some clubs are on the up apparently and mansfield being backed in record numbers, whereas we’ll go to crewe and we’ll face a massive stand maybe a quarter full and no noise.

It’s about how you keep momentum and build on it, rather than stagnate.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Cheers TNO, appreciate your input mate. Even that "despite very little on field success when returning to the league" bit. Hey man you ain't wrong.

It is interesting though and worth keeping in mind for ourselves what you say about yourselves with that decline after the mid 2000s. Could well happen to us. I ain't naive to that. Hubris. But fingers crossed.

re. your last sentence. I dunno if this is what you were getting at but man I'm wondering how the whole Wrexham story is gonna go when they get another promotion or two. I think they can keep the momentum going in L1 but Championship is a whole different beast innit. Enjoy paying the wages needed to be good in that division, Ryan and the other guy.

And once they reach their level where they a mid-table team for a few seasons (hello the Peter principle) - be that L2 or L1 or Champ - what the fairweather bandwagon fans gonna do then?

Wrexham is a unique scenario where the money going in is at levels never seen before in the fourth tier. On their current turnover, which will no doubt only increase in the coming years, they should be in the Championship in five years. But I think the Premier League could well be a pipe dream. I expect the financial situation in the Championship to recover in 5 years and the big guns there won't be as hamstrung as they are now. North Wales may look a big area on the map, but it's 1. sparsely populated and 2. the area is full of existing Man United, Everton and Liverpool, especially on the coast! So, when they stagnate, it'll be very interesting to see what happens with the ownership.

With your normal lower league club that's riding on the crest of the wave though, if they tailspin into decline the gates go down very quickly. Yeovil and Scunthorpe are very good examples of that.

I suppose that’s interesting isn’t it.

Why some clubs are on the up apparently and mansfield being backed in record numbers, whereas we’ll go to crewe and we’ll face a massive stand maybe a quarter full and no noise.

It’s about how you keep momentum and build on it, rather than stagnate.

Football's a cycle. When you were last in the third tier, we beat you 4 times in one season without conceding a goal. We had 7000 for a game with you on NYD and you didn't take many to us owing to your lowly position in Division Two at the time. And I remember when we won 5-0 at Field Mill there was probably 4000 of which a fifth of that was our fans as we travelled a lot better in those days. A mad time when we were too good for League One with our squad (I wish I could say that again). The gulf between our two sides was a chasm then. Now we're both very much part of the League Two furniture.

But we were riding on a crest of a long-term wave that lasted a good 15 years and transformed us from a ramshackle Fourth Division outfit looking over our shoulder at non-league to an established Championship club regularly selling players for millions of pounds. The club, its stadium, its standing and its facilities became unrecognisably different in a very short space of time. That season was our only season out of the Championship between 1997 and 2006. The subsequent era from 2006-2019 was a bad one for us for the reasons I stated in an earlier post, and other clubs leapfrogged us through new stadia, a rise in commercial revenue and improvement on the pitch whereas we were in a long decline at a time when lower league football was seeing a lot of money come into the game. I used to remember us battering the likes of Brentford and Brighton fairly regularly but now look at them and look at us.

If Mansfield were to ever get to the third tier, it'll be interesting to see how gates hold as I think top half of League One is probably a ceiling for Mansfield as it is for us these days and probably 20-30 other like-minded clubs that have spent most of the last 100 years bouncing between L1 to L2. As Stagat says, the Peter Principle would come into force then and, if you lose more games, you generally lose more fans.

As for opening day I reckon it'll be a 6000+ gate due to some optimism going around the town after two poor seasons and there'll be an excellent following from yourselves. I'd wager the Main Stand will be half full rather than a quarter full. But, given I'm working Saturdays now for the foreseeable future, I don't even know if I'll make it given due to new employment, so it's likely to be my first year without an ST in 23 years.

 

[Gills4years]

Interesting debate and obviously money is king, but so is connection with fans.

I know our new owner is seen from the outside purely in monetary terms and we now see ourselves as unlikely to go bust, at least in the short term, which is a comfort.

However, after years of being run in an isolated way by someone who would be looking for an argument in a phone box, we now have a husband and wife team who are absolute PR geniuses IMHO.

From self depreciating jokes placed on Twitter, to selfies with any Gills fan that wants one, to attracting a new main sponsor that has blown the old one out of the water, to numerous new commercial deals with other local businesses, to improvement plans to the ground including renovations to bars, shop and food outlets. Maybe even to the infamous Brian Moore open "temporary" stand which they will assess depending on how full the ground will get.

Season ticket take up keeps growing and growing by the week as does the anticipation and above all there is positivity. So refreshing.

They say they want to build a club that is sustainable and maybe I am gullible but I actually believe them.

 

[Optipez]

Interesting debate and obviously money is king, but so is connection with fans.

I know our new owner is seen from the outside purely in monetary terms and we now see ourselves as unlikely to go bust, at least in the short term, which is a comfort.

However, after years of being run in an isolated way by someone who would be looking for an argument in a phone box, we now have a husband and wife team who are absolute PR geniuses IMHO.

From self depreciating jokes placed on Twitter, to selfies with any Gills fan that wants one, to attracting a new main sponsor that has blown the old one out of the water, to numerous new commercial deals with other local businesses, to improvement plans to the ground including renovations to bars, shop and food outlets. Maybe even to the infamous Brian Moore open "temporary" stand which they will assess depending on how full the ground will get.

Season ticket take up keeps growing and growing by the week as does the anticipation and above all there is positivity. So refreshing.

They say they want to build a club that is sustainable and maybe I am gullible but I actually believe them.

There's nothing less sustainable than a football club that wants to compete, absolute money pits, the lot of them.
I think the best fans can hope for is a decent trip on the rollercoaster and hope you're not pig sick when the ride ends and the owner wants out.
For Notts it's always been about what hidden mess the owners have left for the new owners to pick up and I think it's true for many clubs when ownership changes.
As for crowds, momentum and the feel-good factor makes all the difference. 21-2 season was our lowest ever finishing position but crowds were quite a bit higher than our last few seasons in L2 had been because we won most home matches, played decent football and weren't in an annual relegation battle.
Four seasons of great owners, successive play-off campaigns and ultimately promotion has seen season ticket sales almost double and we went from taking 14,500 to a L1 Wembley play-off final twenty or so years ago to 22,500 for non league last season.
As for club size, Bradford are head and shoulders the biggest in the division but for some reason have massively underachieved for most of their history which I've never really understood.

 

[EnglishRed]

Obviously our attendances have jumped massively since the takeover and all the excitement that has brought. Our average was around 10k last season and 8.5k I think the season before but even before the takeover the WST had done some good work in getting people into the ground we went from an average of around 3k to 5k even though we were a terrible national league side with almost no hope of getting promoted.

I remember when I started going back in the 90s and we'd be getting 3.5-4k in Division 2. So crowds do seem to be better in the lower reaches nowadays.

 

[Mighty_Bantam]

There's nothing less sustainable than a football club that wants to compete, absolute money pits, the lot of them.
I think the best fans can hope for is a decent trip on the rollercoaster and hope you're not pig sick when the ride ends and the owner wants out.
For Notts it's always been about what hidden mess the owners have left for the new owners to pick up and I think it's true for many clubs when ownership changes.
As for crowds, momentum and the feel-good factor makes all the difference. 21-2 season was our lowest ever finishing position but crowds were quite a bit higher than our last few seasons in L2 had been because we won most home matches, played decent football and weren't in an annual relegation battle.
Four seasons of great owners, successive play-off campaigns and ultimately promotion has seen season ticket sales almost double and we went from taking 14,500 to a L1 Wembley play-off final twenty or so years ago to 22,500 for non league last season.
As for club size, Bradford are head and shoulders the biggest in the division but for some reason have massively underachieved for most of their history which I've never really understood.

Our problem is the club reflected the city's downfall in the early-mid 20th century and then never really recovered. There's then an element of the club who are "happy to have a club"/"be glad we're not Bury...etc" who seemingly are happy to exist without doing anything which allows the club to get off lightly in terms of ambition and drive. That seems to be changing a little now but we're obviously lightyears behind and it's frustrating to watch similar/smaller sized clubs (even just within Yorkshire) punch way above us.

We keep getting told by Hughes and our CEO that once we hit L1 we'll fly. Our turnover this year was a record for any of our years in L2 and L1, so we're doing something right off the pitch. Just about translating that to the grass now.

 

[Luke Imp]

Benefit of having the Secretary for DCMS (now Deputy PM) as your local MP and personal friend of the Chairman. It's why they got the most Covid money out of everyone in the league relative to their losses (they actually made money).

I watched the Youtube documentary on that this morning, and the silence from everyone involved in the decision making tells its own story. I'm amazed it's all gone quiet, even neatly three years on, the handouts should be corrected.

 

[Luke Imp]

From self depreciating jokes placed on Twitter, to selfies with any Gills fan that wants one, to attracting a new main sponsor that has blown the old one out of the water, to numerous new commercial deals with other local businesses, to improvement plans to the ground including renovations to bars, shop and food outlets. Maybe even to the infamous Brian Moore open "temporary" stand which they will assess depending on how full the ground will get.

Season ticket take up keeps growing and growing by the week as does the anticipation and above all there is positivity. So refreshing.

They say they want to build a club that is sustainable and maybe I am gullible but I actually believe them.

How much of that do you think was down to Scally not being involved rather than all down to the new guys? Always got the impression from afar that no-one really wanted to deal with him.

 

[Carver]

Think they’ve got it nailed for league 2 tbh.

Well whoever did this is a lazy c*** because we're definitely bigger than a couple other L1 clubs such as Northampton and Wycombe.

 

[PuB]

How much of that do you think was down to Scally not being involved rather than all down to the new guys? Always got the impression from afar that no-one really wanted to deal with him.

There was definitely an element of that at the end, including local businesses not wanting to deal with the club because we were notoriously slow payers. But included in that he wouldn’t deal with agents (not entirely a bad thing), but it does limit the pool of players you can attract to a club once you become hard to deal with.

I think my favourite Scally moment was when he started offering agents garage doors instead of fees, no idea how or why he had a surplus of them.

 

[Son of Cod]

There are a fair share of Grimsby fans who still cling onto your Championship stint so all fans focus on certain aspects of history and it's all cyclical anyway. Probably to ups and downs for us I suppose because we're a pretty even split between L1 and L2 in our history.

FWIW, and you'll know better than me, but I'm not sure Grimsby have the potential at the minute to reach the highs of our 9k/10k attendances (and I say that because I think you've lost a generation of fans because of Fenty) but you'd never be in danger of dropping as low as our did in the Conference, albeit yours still dropped to 3k at one stage, Mansfield 2k, Wrexham 3k - so the arse falls out of all attendances when you get down there whoever you are and your away attendances as a % of home has always been impressive.

But I don't really know what constitutes a bigger club anyway - stadium size? facilities? budget? turnover? title wins? cup wins? number of season ticket holders? average position in the league pyramid over 5 years? 10 years? 25 years? 50 years? a bit of all of them?

Ultimately, fans turn up when their team is successful and gloat (if you're that kinda person, I don't get it personally but each to their own) and don't when they aren't - it's as simplistic as that. Lincoln, Grimsby, Wrexham and Mansfield have all found 'new' fans with increased attendances and season ticket holders when it's all going swimmingly with a bit of momentum but that's the nature of football. The difficult part is keeping them engaged when it goes into reverse or plateaus!

Yeah good post, we aren't able to do 9/10k, we haven't been able to sustain that in my supporting life. We're back up around our average during our 90s second tier stint which, like the Stags fans are saying about them, is pretty impressive. We've seen a steady increase since the takeover and there has been a bit of focus on match day experience and the younger generation. You have to tip your hat to the way Lincoln harnessed their growth and have sustained the gates they have.

I agree.

However, the list compiled by myself below is correct.

1. Bradford City
2. Swindon Town
3. Wimbledon
4. Stockport County
5. Tranmere Rovers
6. Wrexham
7. Notts County
8. Doncaster Rovers
9. Gillingham
10. Grimsby Town
11. MK Dons
12. Walsall
13. Crewe Alexandra
14. Mansfield Town
15. Colchester United
16. Newport County
17. Barrow
18. Morecambe
19. Crawley Town
20. Accrington Stanley
21. Sutton United
22. Forest Green Rover
23. Harrogate Town
24. Salford


*Runs for cover

I'd tier it personally. The clubs that have done Prem time get decent slots by default...

Bradford

Wimbledon / Swindon / Notts

Tranmere / Grimsby / Wrexham / Stockport

Mansfield / Gillingham / Donny / Colchester / Crewe / Walsall

Salford / Harrogate / MK Dons / Crawley / Morecambe / Barrow / Newport / Accrington / Sutton / FGR

But yeah ultimately I agree with Conker's comment that this is absolutely futile.

 

[northstandexile]

AFC Wimbledon haven’t been in Prem. That team was who are now called MK Dons.

 

[Son of Cod]

AFC Wimbledon haven’t been in Prem. That team was who are now called MK Dons.

Technically the history and honours of the original Wimbledon belong to neither AFCW or MK Dons but it rightfully belongs to the former as such I'm saying they're an ex-Prem club.

 

[northstandexile]

Technically the history and honours of the original Wimbledon belong to neither AFCW or MK Dons but it rightfully belongs to the former as such I'm saying they're an ex-Prem club.

How is it that AFC Wimbledon played their first game in 2002, and Wimbledon FC didn’t move to MK until 2003 and didn’t change their name to MK Dons until 2004.