Red Bull

[TubularBells]

Rumours abound they want to purchase a Premier League club, possibly a lower league club.

In the light of what RB Leipzig are doing and how unpopular it is in Germany. I do wonder how it would go down over here.
Would you as a fan of your club. Be happy if your club was bought out by them and they threw money at it.
Some will argue clubs already do.
I'm just curious how you, as a fan of your club would react to such a takeover.

I'm torn. I'm proud of what we have achieved merely on sound investment by local businessmen who are supporters of the club. That said. To compete with the so called 'big boys'. We can't afford (yet) to splash out £30 million on one player.
The issue, I guess is; would you sell your souls as fans of your club for success at any cost?
It can be argued that many clubs already have and undoubtedly money seems to be the new God in football.
What would be your reaction to, say; Red Bull Rotherham (It's a stretch, but not impossible) say were to fly up the leagues and win the Premier League?
Would you say good luck to them? Or would you look on them (other teams are available) with envious eyes and approach the attitude that people have in Germany to Leipzig?!

 

[Dirk]

Rumours abound they want to purchase a Premier League club, possibly a lower league club.

In the light of what RB Leipzig are doing and how unpopular it is in Germany. I do wonder how it would go down over here.

2 weeks ago I explained a bit the "concept" of RB Leipzig in the Bundesliga thread because
Luke_1884 asked about this club:

http://onefootballforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/german-football.444/page-31#post-541858

There are several Red Bull clubs over the world, Salzburg (Austria), New York and Brazil (I think). In Germany it isnt called Red Bull Leipzig but "Rasenballsport" Leipzig (hence the RB) because of a German FA regulation. But it is of course a Red Bull club, logo and advertisement shows the way.
Yes, it is (or was) unpopular that Red Bull bought the starting rights of a 5th league club in 2009 so that they didn't have to begin at the lowest stage like every other new club but could start at a higher position. Now 7 years later (and 4 promotions) they are in the top class.
Of course with the Red Bull money but also with an excellent scouting and class in management. They are by far the youngest team in the League and that's their philosophy.

The German Clubs in the Bundesliga are not in the "hand of sheiks, billionaires or companies from China or..." , not because those investors weren't interested but because of our "50plus1" rule which prohibits them to take over complete control of the club (the club itself has to hold the majority of voting rights).

The Red Bull engagement is still unpopular for the normal football fan who likes his tradtion and the history of their clubs and they believe that a club shouldn't "buy in" to the League System (a bit like the US franchise model) but more and more RB Leipzig gains the respect, too, because of their excellent work in scouting and the commitment to the community in Leipzig

In the UK it is a bit different, I think. Many of your clubs are already "in the hands" of foreign investors, businessmen or companies. So a Red Bull engagement wouldn't be such a "novelty" like it was in Germany. And I think even a name change to Red Bull .... would be easier than in Germany. You have already investors who changed the club colours like in Cardiff

 

[Benji]

You forgot about how Leipzig circumvented the 50+1 rule by selling membership only to Red Bull employees. In general, you are right though. Cardiff proved that fans won't make such a fuss if the unsavoury methods bring Premier League football to an city that otherwise wouldn't be getting it.

 

[Dirk]

yes, you're right. There are already exceptions from the 50plus1 rule for example for Dortmund, Hoffenheim, Leverkusen (lex leverkusen) for the voting rights and I've edited my post. And the EU also complained that this rule violates EU law.

Anyway, that isn't the case for the Football in the UK. Would be interesting to know the opinions of UK Fans of such a possible engagement of Red Bull. I personally don't like the concept of buying in into the league system at a prominent level (in Germany 5th league, in England maybe even higher ) and I don't like that RB clubs from "lower" leagues like the Austrian Bundesliga club RB Salzburg has to offer their players for the German RB Club because the league has a higher standing.
On a positive note: I like how professional the scouting system is in this "RB Universe".

 

[TubularBells]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the nearest we have as an example would be MK Dons. Who purchased Wimbledon as an ailing club, moved town and were allowed to maintain the league position and not start from the bottom as they should have done really.
The Cardiff model is an interesting one. Most fans would bite Red Bulls hands off I guess seeing as foreign investment is commonplace in our league's anyway.
Thanks again for explaining from a German perspective Dirk.

 

[AnimoEtFide]

Are West Ham one of the prospective clubs? The commentator on MOTD last night mentioned something about being the target of a take over by a soft drinks manufacturer.

 

[TubularBells]

Are West Ham one of the prospective clubs? The commentator on MOTD last night mentioned something about being the target of a take over by a soft drinks manufacturer.

I heard something too. Not sure I heard the soft drink part though.
Bit of a mouthful 'Red Bull West Ham United'.
Would they change their song from 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' to 'We're forever high on caffeine!'?

 

[Dirk]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the nearest we have as an example would be MK Dons. Who purchased Wimbledon as an ailing club, moved town and were allowed to maintain the league position and not start from the bottom as they should have done really.

Right, the Dons example slipped my mind. So this "overtake" has already happened in your league system even with namechange and re-settling. I hated it back then when they moved the club and I still don't like it today. In the US this is normal to move a club to another town but in Europe it's not

I heard something too. Not sure I heard the soft drink part though.
Bit of a mouthful 'Red Bull West Ham United'.
Would they change their song from 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' to 'We're forever high on caffeine!'?

West Ham are a target for Red Bull? They have to change their nickname, too, from Hammers to Softies then

 

[Christian Slater]

Corporation teams aren't a novelty in Germany. I know Bayer Leverkusen were founded by the workers, not so sure about Wolfsburg, and then you have Red Bull making it three teams that represent companies. I hate it, are people going to watch Coke FC vs Pepsi play in the CL one day?

I think the way City, PSG, Chelsea and Red Bull operate is unsporting. Football should be competition on and off the field, I don't see the competitive aspect of spending another man's money until it clicks. City have spent more than most clubs have in their histories in the last five years on centre backs alone.

 

[Dirk]

Corporation teams aren't a novelty in Germany. I know Bayer Leverkusen were founded by the workers, not so sure about Wolfsburg, and then you have Red Bull making it
three teams that represent companies.

Yes I already mentioned the examples of Bayer and Volkswagen (although they don't have their name in the club name). But these are German corporations whereas Red Bull is an Austrian.So this is the first foreign corporation that "owns" a German Bundesliga club

I think the way City, PSG, Chelsea and Red Bull operate is unsporting. Football should be competition on and off the field, I don't see the competitive aspect of spending another man's money until it clicks. City have spent more than most clubs have in their histories in the last five years on centre backs alone.

Nice thought.
The European Leagues are even complaining that former "also rans" in the Premier League outbid them now due to their money from foreign investors and the big tv contract money.
Before the Premier League was formed not many European footballers were interested to play in England. In the 80's it was mainly Spain and Italy were the big money was and a German top player who wanted to move abroad went to Spain and Italy. Then the Serie A went downwards and the Premier League got the money from the Pay Tv and the foreign investors and then the European footballers suddenly wanted to play in England. Not because of the good weather or the excellent cuisine but because of the money.
And now there is this China League.....

 

[TubularBells]

Before the Premier League was formed not many European footballers were interested to play in England. In the 80's it was mainly Spain and Italy

In fairness, the standard of football in England in the 80's was declining quite badly. Something needed to be done. When you consider some of the players who represented us in the late 80's and even into the 90's. We even had Graham Taylor as manager!
There's nothing new in players going where the money is. That's happened for many years now.

 

[Dirk]

In fairness, the standard of football in England in the 80's was declining quite badly. Something needed to be done. When you consider some of the players who represented us in the late 80's and even into the 90's. We even had Graham Taylor as manager!

but the Three Lions were still better than today where there are only very few english players in the teams of the Premier League besides the majority of foreign players

There's nothing new in players going where the money is. That's happened for many years now.

Of course, But I still hear the voices of Lothar Matthäus or Andy Brehme or Andy Möller when they shouted out how it was their dream to play once in Italy (Andy Möller's "legendary quote": "Milan or Madrid? Anyway as long as it's Italy ). Now you hear (maybe) some foreign player say that it was always his dream to play one time for West Bromwich Albion )

 

[TubularBells]

Of course, But I still hear the voices of Lothar Matthäus or Andy Brehme or Andy Möller when they shouted out how it was their dream to play once in Italy (Andy Möller's "legendary quote": "Milan or Madrid? Anyway as long as it's Italy ). Now you hear (maybe) some foreign player say that it was always his dream to play one time for West Bromwich Albion

I never got that Dirk.I don't understand why a player wants to go to play for Madrid or Barcelona etc. They simply suck up the best players and are guaranteed to win something because the majority of other clubs are so poor in their league. The same is of Scotland. Celtic have the monopoly. They are pretty much guaranteed the title before the season starts. If a player's ambition is to win things and face no competition then they should go to Spain, Scotland etc. If they want to challenge themselves week in and week out then they would play in a competitive league.
I would suggest it was simply money. I don't see the difference. A player will go where the money is. I quickly got tired of watching Serie A back in the late 80's/90's. It was dull to watch. Spanish football also has been for a long time pretty much monopolised by the usual suspects. Real, Barcelona and very rarely another team has a decent season. All down to money.
Granted, Milan or Madrid sounds more glamorous than West Bromwich but I doubt that goes through a players mind much. You can't use that argument for any club in the warmer climes and more attractive resorts of Europe. Would they prefer to play for Narbonne in the beautiful south of France for £5,000 a week or £80,000 a week at the Hawthorns? Why are all these players all going to China? It certainly isn't for their desire to learn Mandarin or have Chinese buffet's every day.
Also regards to WBA. While they may not be in a cultural hotbed of society. If WBA had offered any of those mentioned by you a shed load of money. They'd have jumped at the chance.

 

[Dirk]

Also regards to WBA. While they may not be in a cultural hotbed of society. If WBA had offered any of those mentioned by you a shed load of money. They'd have jumped at the chance.

This was only a tongue in cheek post. Absolutely no disrespect meant to WBA (you know that I have a soft spot for all the founder members of the football league and Albion is one of those clubs that gave us the first professional football league). No it was a comment about Players saying ridiculous things about playing for a club they maybe never heard of before when the only reason is..the money.

If WBA had offered any of those mentioned by you a shed load of money. They'd have jumped at the chance.

No, I really doubt that. Those Germans mentioned by me were (although daft) true competitive players who wanted to play on the highest level but also for a competitive team in Europe (and this, by all respect, isn't WBA). Maybe at the very end of their careers they would consider it to play for a weaker team in a competitive league or in the case of Matthäus even playing in a weak league (MLS). But not when they were in the high of their careers.

Nowadays it's a bit different and with the ridiculous sums that the new chinese league pays...who knows. Some even move in their high now in these leagues like the Italian Pelle

 

[Stevencc]

Red Bull gives you wings...

 

[PDS]

The continued disdain towards MK hopefully shows how it would be greeted, but that doesn't necessarily stop it happening.

Dirk makes a very good point though that when you look at RBL, they are exceptionally well run, it's not just money but they have established quality coaching and scouting (Correct me if I'm wrong, but led by the very progressive Ralf Rangnick?). Man City have spent billions to become an elite club and they still have won two league titles; it takes a lot more than just money.

Having said that, we are so very attached to the identity and history of our clubs; I can't see a complete re-brand as with RBL or Red Bull Salzburg; the new fan who gets attracted by success will buy into it, but I think they will alienate a lot of their core support

 

[Dirk]

Dirk makes a very good point though that when you look at RBL, they are exceptionally well run, it's not just money but they have established quality coaching and scouting (Correct me if I'm wrong, but led by the very progressive Ralf Rangnick?).

Absolutely right. Ralf Rangnick is one of the masterminds behind their success. First as director of football then as coach in their promotion year to the Bundesliga and now again as director of Football.

Scottish talent Oliver Burke has chosen RB Leipzig instead of Premier League clubs. Although he could earn a lot more money at a PL club, he often said that the football concept of RB Leipzig has convinced him. I am sure that we'll see in the future some german talents of Leipzig in the German team, too.

Having said that, we are so very attached to the identity and history of our clubs; I can't see a complete re-brand as with RBL or Red Bull Salzburg; the new fan who gets attracted by success will buy into it, but I think they will alienate a lot of their core support

That would be the same here in Germany and that's why they chose to overtake a small town club from the 5th league and "re-branded" it. That this club is near Leipzig is no coincidence. Leipzig is the city where the German FA was founded and VfB Leipzig was the very first German Champion under the German FA (DFB) rules and had even in the dark days of Communism in East Germany with Lokomotive Leipzig huge support. After the re-unification of Germany the old VfB Leipzig played again (very shortly) in the Bundesliga. And I think it would be more problematic to "overtake" this tradition-rich club and re-name it.
The Football fans of Leipzig are now very happy that they have a club in the top flight again. Actually they have plans to extend the 42.000 capacity stadium to something like 55-60.000.