The death of Bury FC...

[UTS]

Have Bury ever been run properly? I mean, they were decent payers in L2 with not great crowds.

They've never been a Club who have, from the outside, looked like cutting their cloth and paying what they can afford.

We certainly have. We've played within our means from 1885-1996 and from 1999-2014. The only time we've have 'decent budgets' in our history was during our rise in the late 90's and in the last two years.. what an incredibly ignorant comment. You think we were overspending when finishing 21st in L2 in 2007?

 

[Luke Imp]

Well, exactly, hence my comment 'from the outside'. My point was, there always seems to be something happening at Bury with finances. Maybe it's not as often as I think.

What about 2008 till whenever when you had Bishop, Lowe, Bennett, Dawson, Sodje, Cresswell, Howarth, Worrall, Ajose etc? On, what, 2.5k-3k crowds? You've had players down the years where people wondered how the hell you've afforded them.

Bishop was certainly on a good crack back in the L2 days before I can remember it being discussed by Bury fans on TFF.

 

[UTS]

Well, exactly, hence my comment 'from the outside'. My point was, there always seems to be something happening at Bury with finances. Maybe it's not as often as I think.

What about 2008 till whenever when you had Bishop, Lowe, Bennett, Dawson, Sodje, Cresswell, Howarth, Worrall, Ajose etc? On, what, 2.5k-3k crowds? You've had players down the years where people wondered how the hell you've afforded them.

Bishop was certainly on a good crack back in the L2 days before I can remember it being discussed by Bury fans on TFF.

So because we get 3k a week in L2 we aren't allowed decent teams? You could say that to Rochdale, Mansfield, Burton, York, Scunthorpe, Hartlepool etc etc... what a strange comment.

Sodje, Ajose etc where all loan players before they signed. Sodje played for us for years and Ajose is born in Bury and we were his first senior club. Dawson has since gone on to play for footballing giants such as Rochdale and Scunthorpe etc proving the big money thing out of the water. We built our promotion team over a few decent seasons, picking up Ryan Lowe from relegated Chester City...Worrall was from Shrewsbury town.. again, Elliot Bennett was on loan from Wolves... we moulded that team to say we overspent simply because we had a half decent team is ridicoulous. I am willing to bet you, we had a lower budget than Lincoln did for the 10 year spell we were in L2.

Bishop was probably our highest earner , but we plucked him from the conference and his goals kept us from being relegated, the rest of the squad was shoestring. Do some research before making ridiculous assumptions.

For 98% of our existence we haven't had a pot to piss in but still performed relatively well considering. Some shrewd transfers and loan signings under Alan Knill paved the way for some decent teams from 2008-11.. a massive 3 year period.

 

[KeithH]

UTS you are a tit and once again proving it to all.

 

[UTS]

UTS you are a tit and once again proving it to all.

God knows what your problem is

 

[EricSabin]

UTS you are a tit and once again proving it to all.

He's actually justified that squad very well, give a proper reply disproving it

 

[Luke Imp]

So because we get 3k a week in L2 we aren't allowed decent teams? You could say that to Rochdale, Mansfield, Burton, York, Scunthorpe, Hartlepool etc etc... what a strange comment.

Sodje, Ajose etc where all loan players before they signed. Sodje played for us for years and Ajose is born in Bury and we were his first senior club. Dawson has since gone on to play for footballing giants such as Rochdale and Scunthorpe etc proving the big money thing out of the water. We built our promotion team over a few decent seasons, picking up Ryan Lowe from relegated Chester City...Worrall was from Shrewsbury town.. again, Elliot Bennett was on loan from Wolves... we moulded that team to say we overspent simply because we had a half decent team is ridicoulous. I am willing to bet you, we had a lower budget than Lincoln did for the 10 year spell we were in L2.

Bishop was probably our highest earner , but we plucked him from the conference and his goals kept us from being relegated, the rest of the squad was shoestring. Do some research before making ridiculous assumptions.

For 98% of our existence we haven't had a pot to piss in but still performed relatively well considering. Some shrewd transfers and loan signings under Alan Knill paved the way for some decent teams from 2008-11.. a massive 3 year period.

You've missed my point. I said I couldn't understand how you afforded that squad at the time, with those crowds. Not that you weren't allowed decent teams (now, that's a strange comment...).

Nor does Dawson moving to Rochdale and Scunthorpe mean that he wasn't on decent money at your place (bearing in mind that Scunthorpe at that point would have been under the ownership of Steve Wharton who wasn't short of a bob or two).

Back to my original point, though, and my point still stands. Bury *seem* to always have some sort of financial issue just round the corner. How true that is, I don't know because as I said, "from the outside"...

 

[UTS]

You've missed my point. I said I couldn't understand how you afforded that squad at the time, with those crowds. Not that you weren't allowed decent teams (now, that's a strange comment...).

Nor does Dawson moving to Rochdale and Scunthorpe mean that he wasn't on decent money at your place (bearing in mind that Scunthorpe at that point would have been under the ownership of Steve Wharton who wasn't short of a bob or two).

Back to my original point, though, and my point still stands. Bury *seem* to always have some sort of financial issue just round the corner. How true that is, I don't know because as I said, "from the outside"...

I've explained how we afforded the team of 2008-10. Your original statement argued that Bury have rarely lived within their means, which is bollocks. If we regularly overspent we would have gone bust 110 years ago!

 

[Lancs@(Bantam)]

Bury have always had players that they can't really afford, it can only end one way surely.

 

[MJA]

Seeing a lot of 'it's not the fans fault' as though we should be sympathetic to people who were quite happy to live the dream whilst their club were making all the 'high profile' signings like Tom Pope. They also seemed quite happy to play the billy big bollocks role with fans from other sides whilst Bury were sat happily in the top 6 which would suggest these fans brought into the idea of an overspend and are getting what they deserve now.

Even Vale's pitiful home attendances are above Bury's and yet we failed to produce a budget good enough to hold onto Tom Pope (not that he is worth breaking the bank for) compared to what Bury offered him.

 

[Indian Dan]

But how much are all your foreign johnnies costing? Can't see them getting tempted from sunnier climes to the attraction of the Potteries for peanuts.

I'd imagine ye olde Smuf has financed them well outside what Vale, as a business, can afford.

We've all been there in some form and all, in time, paid for it on the pitch.

 

[stevie_howard]

Seeing a lot of 'it's not the fans fault' as though we should be sympathetic to people who were quite happy to live the dream whilst their club were making all the 'high profile' signings like Tom Pope. They also seemed quite happy to play the billy big bollocks role with fans from other sides whilst Bury were sat happily in the top 6 which would suggest these fans brought into the idea of an overspend and are getting what they deserve now.

Even Vale's pitiful home attendances are above Bury's and yet we failed to produce a budget good enough to hold onto Tom Pope (not that he is worth breaking the bank for) compared to what Bury offered him.

If you had read proper Bury freds like marmite and uber you will have noticed that we were mostly aware of what was going on, but quite frankly I am beyond caring now. For the first time I can remember I didn't miss the football on Saturday. I have more fun now when I watch Linfield than I do when I watch Bury. Enjoy the ride I thought, but trust me my eyes were wide open. Sadly the fat prick from Bolton meant that matchdays were rarely enjoyable, even when challenging for promotion.

 

[MJA]

But how much are all your foreign johnnies costing? Can't see them getting tempted from sunnier climes to the attraction of the Potteries for peanuts.

I'd imagine ye olde Smuf has financed them well outside what Vale, as a business, can afford.

We've all been there in some form and all, in time, paid for it on the pitch.

I really doubt players out of the French and Dutch lower leagues are earning that much money and the only reason they would leave these sunnier climes is to try and put themselves in the shop window for bigger English clubs to snap them up (not that this will be happening with any of those at Vale).

I am positive that Smurf is financing the club beyond its means and I am also fairly positive that he won't be with us for more than a few more seasons but you won't find me wanting sympathy off other fans if he does leave the club in a mess.

It's the same old thing with fans in that no questions are ever asked regarding what is happening behind the scenes when they are enjoying positive results on the pitch and they are signing 'big name' players but the minute things turn a bit sour they come out crying about it and wanting fans of other teams to put money in collection buckets and all that shit

 

[Fuzzyvalefan]

The money that Bury were offering for wages 18 months ago was ridiculous for a club of their size. We all predicted at the time that they would be in the shit a year or down the line and they are. How much is Pope on? How much was Leon Clarke on? How much is Soares on? How much is James Vaughan on? Am I right in thinking Bury's owner is a property developer? Whats the situation with the ground, is it owned by the club or him? Whenever i see that a 'property developer' is involved in a football club, the alarm bells start to ring, even more so when the club start to so obviously live above their means. I like Bury as a club and hope they will be ok but i would be massively worried if i was a Bury fan.

 

[UTS]

The money that Bury were offering for wages 18 months ago was ridiculous for a club of their size. We all predicted at the time that they would be in the shit a year or down the line and they are. How much is Pope on? How much was Leon Clarke on? How much is Soares on? How much is James Vaughan on? Am I right in thinking Bury's owner is a property developer? Whats the situation with the ground, is it owned by the club or him? Whenever i see that a 'property developer' is involved in a football club, the alarm bells start to ring, even more so when the club start to so obviously live above their means. I like Bury as a club and hope they will be ok but i would be massively worried if i was a Bury fan.

Well we are massively worried hence the thread title.

By the way.. those saying they've no sympathy because we were happy to 'enjoy the ride', what else are we supposed to do? We as supporters have no control what happens. Look at Blackpool etc

 

[Craig]

Danny Rose won't have come cheap. On the fringes of making it big with his home town club when Bury rocked up offering God only knows what kind of incentives and turning the young mans head.

 

[UTS]

Danny Rose won't have come cheap. On the fringes of making it big with his home town club when Bury rocked up offering God only knows what kind of incentives and turning the young mans head.

Sarcasm? Hard to tell. Another one that started as a loan player. Sold to Mansfield for 20k, go figure.

 

[T.A]

Ohh Danny Rose!!!!

 

[MJA]

By the way.. those saying they've no sympathy because we were happy to 'enjoy the ride', what else are we supposed to do? We as supporters have no control what happens. Look at Blackpool etc

It's more the way supporters 'enjoy the ride' when they know full well that the money being spent by a club of Bury's size is in no way correlated to the sort of money that the club must be generating.

 

[THE LAST WALTZ]

It's interesting to know how Bury, or any other EFL club for that matter, can get themselves in such a mess with the restrictions currently in place.
League one and two teams are governed by the Salary Cap Management Protocol (SCMP) which dictates that they can only spend 60% of their turnover on wages.
They also have to submit 6 monthly accounts to the Football League and must inform them if they even suspect that they are likely to breach these rules.
There are, however, no restrictions on losses made (unlike FFP in the Premier League and Championship).
It seems to suggest, therefore, that there has either been some very 'creative' accounting or the losses are from somewhere other than players wages.
Any Bury fans have any idea?

 

[PuB]

An issue over a couple of dodgy loans spiralling out of control I think. Like you say they can't have broken the 60% rule as it's pretty water tight. (Loans are not allowed to be included in the turnover total if anyone's wondering).

 

[King Kev]

Coming late to this thread as usual so let me just clear a few things up.

Please do not generalise Bury fans based on what a few might have said on Twitter in the summers of 2014 or 2015, I actually know of very few bar a couple of idiots on our message board who have ever acted the Billy Big Bollocks and less so have supported our board. Some chose to enjoy the ride, many didn't and have done everything within our limited power to get answers out of our board.

The majority of Bury supporters have been asking questions and demanding answers of the BFC board from day one. I should know, I was part of a large private group that held discussions on how to approach Day and Thomas and discuss our blatant overspending. We weren't excited in the summer of 2014 despite being tipped as league two title favourites, many of us were hugely worried and demanding answers from our board as well as firing warnings as to where their stupid gamble would lead us.

It was that same summer of 2014 when many started to really question things. You can say what you want based on a few tweets you read or what our fans chanted at a game of football, but I think discussions in the pub, on our messageboard and on the old Marmite thread on TFF really summed up the feelings of our fans. That summer there were many polls and heated discussions about our spending with the vast majority voicing concern.
It got to a point when a group of fans sent an open letter to the board pleading clarity on where our money was coming from, warning them about the past and asking for a sit down meeting so that proper plans could be discussed and we could be given much needed clarity.

The board released an official statement declaring we were shit stirring fans of other clubs trying to ruin what they were trying to do. They then released a statement calling fans asking valid questions 'keyboard cowards.' If that doesn't give you an idea as to what type of scumbags we are dealing with then I don't know what does.
They promised us monthly fans forums and never gave us any, aside from one in Tenerife. Fans have constantly asked for them and bar one the tenerife forum, those requests have been ignored until they gave us a second forum in July.
We have alerted the local and national media about the plight of the club, the board responded with an interview where they acted like politicians and answered no questions directly. The local media have since been alerted several times and published articles, they've been ignored by the club or the issues have been addressed in interviews nochalantly, 'we are still clearing up debts from the previous board,' 'HMRC are out to get us,' 'there is nothing to worry about.'
One of the biggest local media outlets is Radio Manchester, I tried to get in touch with them to discuss the plight of the club as did several others, those emails, texts and phone calls were ignored.
Despite all the public problems Radio Manchester has had Day, the cause of the problems at Bury FC on the show and treats him like a hero. What hope has our own club got against that?

Yeah you might get gloating and banter on the terraces but can I just re affirm that Bury fans have been well aware and largely against this board from near enough day one, we have done everything we possibly can to get answers, to warn them to oppose them but we are pretty much powerless.
Our last wray of light was our fans group Forever Bury, the board some how backed them into a corner and they ended up giving up their club shares to the board. This was after Forever Bury had begged fans to donate their shares to them so they could oppose Day and Thomas.
Since then they have had pretty much total control of BFC and been able to do what they want.
Part of this agreement when it happened meant a rep from Forever Bury would now be part of the main board, she didn't last long before the board relieved her of her duties for some petty, stupid reason.

When I celebrated promotion at Tranmere it wasn't out of excitment as to where the club was going but out of sheer relief knowing how much the club had gambled.

We had a good team who could have easily held their own last season, thus I was mortified when we signed not one but two big named strikers on massive wages on top of the four strikers we already had. I like many other fans started asking questions again and again and again, all were ignored.

I supported my team and wanted them to do well but a neutrel would see it as poetic justice that we finished an embarrasing 16th last season whilst Burton were promoted and Dale nearly made the playoffs, two very well ran clubs. Proving success can be achieved without vast overspending.

Where to from here? I don't know, it feels like the club is on a knife's edge and could fall on the sword at any moment. I am just praying some form of gamble comes off and we at least get through the season and cart off aload of our overpaid big earners and some how make it through the summer.

I wish these cowboys had come in and tried to run us properly from day one, if that meant 5 years of 21st in league 2 I wouldn't be bothered. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Bury fan who doesn't agree with that.

It is what it is though, I just hope we somehow get through this, get rid of them and still have a football club.

 

[Loyal Dale]

This is all well and good, but I know from following this that many bury fans were delighted that Day & co had come to the rescue, and it was actually a small minority (probably the more sensible ones) who voiced concerns early on. Plenty on here and other media were all too quick to jump on the bandwaggon when the silly spending was at it's peak. There was so much talk of a mystery benefactor behind the scenes...something that clearly isn't true.

The Forever Bury fiasco could and should have been avoided. surely, having gathered supporters voting rights to oppose Day, they should not be giving them their shares without at the very least an EGM or a ballot of members??? At the very least, the FB Board have been guilty of being gullible in the extreme. They have sold their members down the swanny, and gambled with the very future of the club that they were formed to protect.


And at the July fans forum, how come very few (if any) probing or difficult questions were asked of the Board? There was plenty of time for people (Forever Bury again) to organise a proper, robust case for the Board to answer, but this just did not happen.

It seems like Day chucks a few sweeties into the arms of the supporters, and the vast majority of them lap it all up. Like the Hotel, the Festival, the new ground etc etc.


As a football supporter, I really detest what Day and bury have been doing over the past 3 years, and I worry for the future of your club. I hope it can be sorted out... I really do.

 

[King Kev]

.

This is all well and good, but I know from following this that many bury fans were delighted that Day & co had come to the rescue, and it was actually a small minority (probably the more sensible ones) who voiced concerns early on. Plenty on here and other media were all too quick to jump on the bandwaggon when the silly spending was at it's peak. As far as we were aware it was Day or bust so of course we were delighted, though many had not heard of Day so on our MB there was a few question marks about him. However there was no big spend in the summer of 2013 and no losses to report on so at that point we were just thankful to have a football club, we had little choice to wait and see. This forum didn't exist but we did have TFF, Keith T.A It Knocks Four Times, Stevie Howard the main and regular contributors were voicing concern all along, and considering that I know several of these said people in person I can tell you definitively they were always at the very least suspicious of the board.

There was so much talk of a mystery benefactor behind the scenes...something that clearly isn't true. Again at that point that was mere speculation and with our spending wishful thinking, it was also something that was dismissed back in September 2014, bar the odd person who continued to clutch at straws. There has never been a point where a consensus of our support has outwardly said 'peel holdings is backing us.' In fact there was nothing, no answers and no figures at that point. We couldn't just rock up to the club and start protesting without even having answers.


The Forever Bury fiasco could and should have been avoided. surely, having gathered supporters voting rights to oppose Day, they should not be giving them their shares without at the very least an EGM or a ballot of members??? At the very least, the FB Board have been guilty of being gullible in the extreme. They have sold their members down the swanny, and gambled with the very future of the club that they were formed to protect. This I agree with, how this was allowed to happen was beyond me, I do think however that Day and Thomas used some form of blackmail to get their way and pathetically FB relented without a fight. Unbelievably reps from FB still appear on our MB defending their decision.


And at the July fans forum, how come very few (if any) probing or difficult questions were asked of the Board? There was plenty of time for people (Forever Bury again) to organise a proper, robust case for the Board to answer, but this just did not happen.
Did you attend the forum? Plenty of questions asked, some very probing, all answered in the usual politicians manor, ie not at all. Each time they didn't like the angle the questions were going they changed the subject. They also used the 'new ground' announcement days before to ensure some fans were asking about this and used that as their fall back answer to any questions on the finances. Unfortunately we couldn't force them to answer our questions, it was our first forum in Bury since 2013, some people were just thankful to be able to ask some questions.

It seems like Day chucks a few sweeties into the arms of the supporters, and the vast majority of them lap it all up. Unless you have done a poll of Bury supporters you can't know this. As I mentioned in my OP there was a hell of a storm on our MB when the first sweets were chucked in the shape of our summer signings in 2014, and it has been on going ever since, divide going off the MB, TFF, this forum and from Bury fans I have encountered has always been at the very least 60/40 against the board. The first storm lead to letters to the local and national press. You know what we got back then? Insulted! You know what we get if we kick up a fuss now? A fucking interview with the chairman in his fucking living room, all questions asked by Glenn Thomas, no real probing questions ever answered. If that doesn't paint a picture as to how bad these lot are I don't know what does.

Like the Hotel, I doubt you will find many Bury fans who ever thought we would have a hotel near Gigg Lane bar about 5 idiots who post on the MB, many laughed at the notion or just tore the notion to shreds. the Festival, In our defence bands were announced and tickets sold it was the company used to secure the festival who fucked up. Irrelevant really, it would have been a drop in the ocean financially had it gone ahead. the new ground etc etc. The new ground thing is hilarious, I can't believe fans are actually discussing it as though it will actually ever happen

As a football supporter, I really detest what Day and bury have been doing over the past 3 years, and I worry for the future of your club. I hope it can be sorted out... I really do.

You must detest most of the football league and premier league then . Sad thing is we have done these things in the most unsustainable manor and as I mentioned we as a fanbase have tried our best to get answers, to ask questions, to alert the media etc etc of our situation, it has made little difference and we are as a whole powerless. I genuinely don't know what else people expect us to do, aside from protests which if I am being honest I don't think they are too far away.

As a whole id say as an outsider they are fair points made, but any suggestions as to what we could have done or should do aside from the measures taken? As mentioned our last glimmer of hope was Forever Bury, and they folded like a pack of cards for reasons unknown. We have been pretty helpless since then aside from, as already mentioned, continuing the measures already taken. Local and national media, demanding fans forums, emails and letters to the club.

Thanks for the concern though id take a decade of bottom four in league 2 and a spell in the conference if we could be rid of these cretins and become fan owned. I can live in hope, Day claims he has written some of the debt off and will take the hit for the losses, my only hope is he gives up on his project after we get relegated in May and he leaves. If that means admin and relegation to the conference whilst we get ourselves sorted then so be it, at least I could support my football club without worrying every day if we will have a football club in the future.

 

[Loyal Dale]

Yeah.. not too keen on the whole "spend what you don't have" scene, which includes Leicester from not too long ago.

I genuinely wish you good luck, but feel that there is worse to come before things improve. As supporters, it must be tough to see.

Still not sure how Forever Bury can escape the criticism though... surely they are as much to blame as anyone for not questioning this?

 

[Burberry]

More doom and gloom to come out in a day or 2 regarding 1 of our best players. Won't make good reading in our battle to stay up.

 

[King Kev]

Yeah.. not too keen on the whole "spend what you don't have" scene, which includes Leicester from not too long ago.

I genuinely wish you good luck, but feel that there is worse to come before things improve. As supporters, it must be tough to see.

Still not sure how Forever Bury can escape the criticism though... surely they are as much to blame as anyone for not questioning this?

Hope you read all my bolded replies .
I think things will get much worse before they get better, time will tell.
Agree Forever Bury act baffled when fans criticise them, as though the only thing they could do was sell up to Day and co. It defied belief then and defies belief now.

 

[King Kev]

The penny is finally dropping with the folk down the A58.

It dopped long ago with many, just dropping with a few more now.

 

[King Kev]

Well, exactly, hence my comment 'from the outside'. My point was, there always seems to be something happening at Bury with finances. Maybe it's not as often as I think.

What about 2008 till whenever when you had Bishop, Lowe, Bennett, Dawson, Sodje, Cresswell, Howarth, Worrall, Ajose etc? On, what, 2.5k-3k crowds? You've had players down the years where people wondered how the hell you've afforded them.

Bishop was certainly on a good crack back in the L2 days before I can remember it being discussed by Bury fans on TFF.

I'll start from the top. 2008 came on the back of a cash windfall from Nugent and an FA Cup run. We used a large bulk of that I believe to pay off the debt on our stadium. Bishop was having his wages paid by a rich Bury fan not the club otherwise he'd have been sold.
Lowe released by Chester, doubt he was on a huge amount back then, signed a new deal on a good wage and was then sold not long after.
Elliott Bennett was not our player he was on loan, don't think we were paying much of his wages.
Dawson released by Mansfield aged 21, left when he had a better offer from Orient. Again doubt we were ever breaking the bank.
Ajose a Bury lad on loan, United paid his wages.
Sodje was on a decent wage but he was also released by relegated Gillingham, and signed after a loan spell. Don't think we were breaking the bank.
Haworth was crap, had a spell on loan at Dale and signed for us after that. No way near as good as he thought he was so I doubt he had clubs queuing up for him.
Worrall we sold to WBA then signed him back on loan then permanently, he was pretty raw back then again we wouldn't have been breaking the bank for him.
Cresswell can't even remember who we signed him from, he was a young lad though and again I doubt he was on megabucks. Also the players mentioned were spaced out over a 3 year period, not all playing for us at once. I don't doubt we were offering some of those players decent money but nothing out the ordinary compared to other clubs in league two.
Our first crisis of 02 came at the same time as Lincoln's, mainly thanks to ITV Digital and their demise.
05 we had a scare with HMRC but instantly sold two of our best players and we were fine for the next few years albeit skint and crap.
2013 came on the back of monstourous bad budgeting and after that we ended up lumbered with these current cretins. If you have read previous posts, you will see they have been widely opposed, questioned and criticised from day one by a lot of our fans. There has been very little we can do about it though.

Frustratingly we seem to be a club that can't operate normally to save its life. I sincerely hope we become fan owned after this latest fiasco (if we manage to survive) then maybe we can rebuild the club from the ashes of this mismanagement.

 

[Deranged Drunk Guy]

Yet Charlton found a way to lose against them on the opening day of the season.

BASKET CASE.