the Migrant Crisis

[Ebeneezer Goode]

This is only the beginning. If Germany and Sweden are at breaking point now in terms of housing these people, what are they going to be like when it starts all over again in the spring? Merkel was wildly irresponsible in her approach to this crisis, and now threatening to punish Eastern European countries if they don't help clean up her mess is disgraceful.

 

[Womble98]

This is only the beginning. If Germany and Sweden are at breaking point now in terms of housing these people, what are they going to be like when it starts all over again in the spring? Merkel was wildly irresponsible in her approach to this crisis, and now threatening to punish Eastern European countries if they don't help clean up her mess is disgraceful.

and when the next country collapses or the next war breaks out in the middle east or in Africa. This isn't a one off crisis.

 

[SUTSS]

and when the next country collapses or the next war breaks out in the middle east or in Africa. This isn't a one off crisis.

It's never been a one off crisis. Only a quarter to a third of the refugees are Syrians. Many from Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Eritrea and countless other countries. Going to get worse before it gets better and there seems to be no coherent plan in how Europe deals with this. We have to take our fair share of refugees but we can't take them all and there needs to be proper checks and the facilities need to be there. Unfortunately the debate gets dragged down by one side saying if you don't let everyone in you want to bomb the ships and by the other saying if you want to let anyone in then you want to let everyone in.

 

[Womble98]

It's never been a one off crisis. Only a quarter to a third of the refugees are Syrians. Many from Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Eritrea and countless other countries. Going to get worse before it gets better and there seems to be no coherent plan in how Europe deals with this. We have to take our fair share of refugees but we can't take them all and there needs to be proper checks and the facilities need to be there. Unfortunately the debate gets dragged down by one side saying if you don't let everyone in you want to bomb the ships and by the other saying if you want to let anyone in then you want to let everyone in.

That is the thing, many are claiming it is this one off crisis. And your last point is so so correct. It is far more kind, far more logical, and far more humanitarian to focus our efforts on improving the countries these people are coming from, providing solutions there.

 

[.V.]

That is the thing, many are claiming it is this one off crisis. And your last point is so so correct. It is far more kind, far more logical, and far more humanitarian to focus our efforts on improving the countries these people are coming from, providing solutions there.

In my experience those are strongly anti immigration tend to be the same people who say we should gut the foriegn aid budget

 

[Womble98]

In my experience those are strongly anti immigration tend to be the same people who say we should gut the foriegn aid budget

I think we should cut the foreign aid budget (in its current form). Read the book "The Road to Hell" by Michael Maren and you will understand the corruption, the pointless bureaucratic nonsense and scumbaggery that goes on in the international aid industry.

There are certain ways that we can use foreign aid effectively, and unfortunately we are not doing that.

 

[.V.]

I think we should cut the foreign aid budget (in its current form). Read the book "The Road to Hell" by Michael Maren and you will understand the corruption, the pointless bureaucratic nonsense and scumbaggery that goes on in the international aid industry.

There are certain ways that we can use foreign aid effectively, and unfortunately we are not doing that.

Don't disagree with how we use the budget needs to change, but that's not a reason to reduce it imo.

 

[Techno Natch]

That is the thing, many are claiming it is this one off crisis. And your last point is so so correct. It is far more kind, far more logical, and far more humanitarian to focus our efforts on improving the countries these people are coming from, providing solutions there.

How do we start improving the countries mentioned? I fully agree with your general point but at the moment those countries are war torn and that's all that some children known. The seeds have to come from within like they seem to be in Somalia for example going off a report i read a few months back. Then we might be able to help with aid. Until the wars stop though its very hard for anyone to do anything especially those fleeing the conflict.

Also the foreign aid policy needs to be totally reformed but not reduced as V said.

 

[Womble98]

How do we start improving the countries mentioned? I fully agree with your general point but at the moment those countries are war torn and that's all that some children known. The seeds have to come from within like they seem to be in Somalia for example going off a report i read a few months back. Then we might be able to help with aid. Until the wars stop though its very hard for anyone to do anything especially those fleeing the conflict.

Also the foreign aid policy needs to be totally reformed but not reduced as V said.

The original problem with Somalia is that foreign aid destroyed the local agriculture and economy. There was no longer agriculture being cultivated, and this just perpetuated poverty. Foreign aid cannot be a short term fix used over the long term, it needs to look at sustainable process

 

[Techno Natch]

The original problem with Somalia is that foreign aid destroyed the local agriculture and economy. There was no longer agriculture being cultivated, and this just perpetuated poverty. Foreign aid cannot be a short term fix used over the long term, it needs to look at sustainable process

Yeah I agree with that I wasn't pointing to Somalia as a sign that foreign aid worked.

 

[Aber gas]

Wasn't the original problem in Somalia a devastating and long running civil war?

 

[Techno Natch]

Wasn't the original problem in Somalia a devastating and long running civil war?

Might have had something to do with it.

 

[Womble98]

Wasn't the original problem in Somalia a devastating and long running civil war?

Might have had something to do with it.

Which we made worse. We do anything successfully for a political solution, instead just sent huge quantities of food and money in which were controlled by the warlords.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The foreign aid budget should have massive strings attached. No civil liberties? No gender equality? No money for you old boy.

 

[Aber gas]

The foreign aid budget should have massive strings attached. No civil liberties? No gender equality? No money for you old boy.

I don't disagree, I'd also like to see more long term planning and structure instead of a constant drip of aid. Investing in infrastructure and education rather than just handing cheques over.
I believe we are also still giving aid to China and India which seems a bit off to me.

 

[Womble98]

I don't disagree, I'd also like to see more long term planning and structure instead of a constant drip of aid. Investing in infrastructure and education rather than just handing cheques over.
I believe we are also still giving aid to China and India which seems a bit off to me.

Nice to see we agree on something. If aid was given out effectively, I would support us massively increasing the aid budget.

 

[blade1889]

The foreign aid budget should have massive strings attached. No civil liberties? No gender equality? No money for you old boy.

I agree with the sentiment but not sure it's that easy. I think civil liberty and equality changes tend to come from society as opposed to government, or at least the bigger changes in attitude do. Uganda (I think it is) has gone backwards in LGB equality in the last few years and part of that is them wanting to be seen to not bow down to Western governments (ironic as they were a far more accepting country till we went over in the first place), so I think we face a very real issue that if we do try and force governments hands we end up with the exact opposite effect.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't do anything but that what we do needs to be subtle and almost 'under the radar' to start the tide turning but the biggest changes have to come from the countries themselves.

In the mean time I'd like to say 'well you dont get any help till xyz are sorted' but not sure that's a great way of dealing with things either, again we'd be trying to force changes which could easily widen the gap to the opposite of what we want. And I guess the humanitarian side of me says that's poor practice to in effect let people starve and/or suffer, no matter what they or their government may think.

Do agree with G that certain countries we provide aid to we should reassess. Would also never, ever, give money to a foreign government in any country. They want aid? Fine but we're putting in place the programmes to ensure its getting to the right places.

 

[Aber gas]

I agree with the sentiment but not sure it's that easy. I think civil liberty and equality changes tend to come from society as opposed to government, or at least the bigger changes in attitude do. Uganda (I think it is) has gone backwards in LGB equality in the last few years and part of that is them wanting to be seen to not bow down to Western governments (ironic as they were a far more accepting country till we went over in the first place), so I think we face a very real issue that if we do try and force governments hands we end up with the exact opposite effect.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't do anything but that what we do needs to be subtle and almost 'under the radar' to start the tide turning but the biggest changes have to come from the countries themselves.

In the mean time I'd like to say 'well you dont get any help till xyz are sorted' but not sure that's a great way of dealing with things either, again we'd be trying to force changes which could easily widen the gap to the opposite of what we want. And I guess the humanitarian side of me says that's poor practice to in effect let people starve and/or suffer, no matter what they or their government may think.

Do agree with G that certain countries we provide aid to we should reassess. Would also never, ever, give money to a foreign government in any country. They want aid? Fine but we're putting in place the programmes to ensure its getting to the right places.

A balance needs to be found. I wouldn't want conditions to be placed on emergency aid in the wake of a catastrophe. I wouldn't want us to sit back and watch people starve but in terms of long term developmental aid I think aiding repressive regimes is actually harming the people we are aiming to help.
I also think as a country we should reconsider who we do business with, it's too easy to hide behind realpolitik when there is a definite conversation to be had about the sort of regimes that we have relationships with.

 

[blade1889]

A balance needs to be found. I wouldn't want conditions to be placed on emergency aid in the wake of a catastrophe. I wouldn't want us to sit back and watch people starve but in terms of long term developmental aid I think aiding repressive regimes is actually harming the people we are aiming to help.
I also think as a country we should reconsider who we do business with, it's too easy to hide behind realpolitik when there is a definite conversation to be had about the sort of regimes that we have relationships with.

Yeah I mean if we are talking about supporting actual regimes and dictatorships and thus helping them stay in power I would agree that we should reassess. But then I dont agree that regardless of the regime we should be handing over money to them. Not sure how easy it is to separate the two but as an example I wouldn't be giving Mugabes government aid to decide where it goes (just as I wouldn't give money to Obamas government...as an extreme example), I'd be sorting out the aid myself and we would be deciding on where it goes.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

so what do people think of the bulldozers coming out in the jungle, despite the french government saying like 2 days ago they definitely wouldn't bulldoze?

 

[SUTSS]

Will only move them further down the coast line. Trying to make it look like they're doing something when really it's just delaying making a proper coherent strategy to deal with it and thus making the problem worse.