Too many games over the festive period?

[AnkleBiter]

Plenty of managers complaining about this.

I love festive football, but being at Leicester yesterday with a stinking hangover and our 4th match in 10 days, I started to agree with them.

No problem with our games on the 23rd, 26th and 30th but to then play 2 days later on New Years Day is too much for me.

I know they say it's the same for everyone, but is it? The smaller clubs can't afford to have Premier League quality rotational options. We STARTED Joe Lolley yesterday who was a full time student at UCLAN in 2013! And as a result will start a very weak lineup in the FA Cup at the weekend.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Playing football twice in 72 hours? Fuck me. It’s just a shit excuse for those that fail to win one of the games.

 

[Pagnell]

Professional, fit players who more often than not earn more money in a week than your average Joe on the street earns in a year (even at the smaller clubs) are having to play 360 minutes of football in 10 days? Yeah, my heart bleeds.

You also talk about rotational issues with the smaller top flight clubs. I'm curious as I'm not sure what the exact answer is, with the current TV rights, how much money would a club that finishes in say 15th place expect to earn to take into the following campaign?

The managers should shut the fuck up and get on with it. And that includes Klopp if he is one of them.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

the only managers most of the time that moan and complain about it are from the top flight.....many i think because they are foreign, never understand the british way of christmas period and grumble and moan for a winter break.

they want to try and deal with the non-league set-up who play as many games at christmas, if not more on heavier pitches while usually part-time and managing a job and playing same time....or being a manager down there having to rely on same 11-13 players to cover all these games.

If they don't want to play these games they can easily go and manage/play in another country, many others have a break for them.

oh and should add as shown perfectly by Hughes yesterday, resting players does not always make them suddenly better or win games you wish.

 

[Pagnell]

Just to answer my own question, here is the breakdown of what each club earned in the top flight in 16/17. That is just to compete, and doesn't include any money they might or might not make from merchandise, gate takings or player sales etc.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/total...er-league-club-won-in-lucrative-season-2017-5

So, just to survive in 17th place, Burnley walked away with just under £108m. And we're meant to have sympathy for teams for not having enough players to rotate and survive a handful of games over a couple of weeks? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

 

[Super_horns]

When would you fit in the games cancelled over this period?

 

[Humongous Fungus]

When would you fit in the games cancelled over this period?

I guess we'll find out during the winter world cup.

 

[AnkleBiter]

Maybe I should just put up with the hangover then

I do think NYD was a step too far though. There are loads of empty midweeks in the PL season where you could fit in that matchday.

I'm not really into all this old fashioned 'they shouldn't get tired cos they earn HOW MUCH MONEY?!' business. They can play every game, but not to the best of their ability. I believe that was the reason given for Richarlison's dip in form? So he's still playing, but not producing the quality everyone enjoyed watching. Wagner has a sports science degree and has always been a rotater based on 'freshness'.

That link shows the clubs 6th and above got £40m+ more than Burnley, that combined with the extra revenue from global support and sponsorship etc is a big advantage that can give them a strong 25 man squad and is obviously why we have such a gap where you can count the number of bottom 14 wins against the top 6 on one hand.

 

[Pagnell]

I'm not really into all this old fashioned 'they shouldn't get tired cos they earn HOW MUCH MONEY?!' business.

Nice strawman.

That link shows the clubs 6th and above got £40m+ more than Burnley, that combined with the extra revenue from global support and sponsorship etc is a big advantage that can give them a strong 25 man squad and is obviously why we have such a gap where you can count the number of bottom 14 wins against the top 6 on one hand.

It's nothing new. It's common knowledge that staying amongst the best is easier than it is getting there in the first place.

The point is, if a team can't put a big enough squad together with £100m plus for effectively nothing (ie, simply for competing in the league they're in) and deal with a little fixture congestion, then they're not going to get any sympathy from me.

 

[mistermagic]

I think you can keep tradition alive and playing less game by postponing the matchday between Boxing Day and NYD and play it later in the year. There really is no need for it.

Besides, the football has been tripe so who cares.

 

[KevinMcallister]

oh fuck off nothing wrong with the festive games never has been

funny how all the foreign managers complain but yet knew about them before coming

 

[AnkleBiter]

The point is, if a team can't put a big enough squad together with £100m plus for effectively nothing (ie, simply for competing in the league they're in) and deal with a little fixture congestion, then they're not going to get any sympathy from me.

Fair point, but I don't think it's something they should have to deal with. You can easily move one of the matchdays to a midweek elsewhere and still maintaining the festive period and also helping clubs out.

I'm also speaking on a selfish basis, as a fan that goes to every game, 4 games in 10 days at what is already the most expensive time of the year has been a bit painful.

 

[G.B]

don't bother with meaningless international breaks and you have some extra space to spread out the fixtures. is there really any need for an international break in november when the season is just getting started? especially when they've just played 2 qualifiers the previous month. also plenty of spare mid weeks to play some of these fixtures. having 2 domestic cup comps doesn't help with scheduling either, which is why both of them have been devalued to the point a lot of clubs from the top 2 divisions just play reserve sides until they fluke their way in to the later rounds before picking stronger 11's. 4 games in 9/10 days is too much, regardless of how much money they earn. big difference between the intensity of elite competition, the recovery time that comes with that, and you having a kick about down the park with your mate dave 2 out of 3 days.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Fair point, but I don't think it's something they should have to deal with. You can easily move one of the matchdays to a midweek elsewhere and still maintaining the festive period and also helping clubs out.

I'm also speaking on a selfish basis, as a fan that goes to every game, 4 games in 10 days at what is already the most expensive time of the year has been a bit painful.

Have to agree that as someone trying to attend matches, the Xmas and new year period is a nightmare. Finances and family obligations would make a couple of games trickier at that time of year, but throw in 6 games in 16 days...Impossible. All very well if you're happy sitting in your front room through it all mind.

Wouldn't be tricky to keep the traditional bank holiday games whilst moving some of the others around to a couple of midweeks earlier or later in the season. Not to mention the excessive number of international breaks.

 

[Pagnell]

All very well if you're happy sitting in your front room through it all mind.

Ah, the old match attenders snobbery. Nice one.

Happy? More a case of having more important things to spend money and time on over the festive period one suspects.

 

[AnkleBiter]

Ah, the old match attenders snobbery. Nice one.

Happy? More a case of having more important things to spend money and time on over the festive period one suspects.

There may have been 4 matches in 10 days but there are still 6 other days to fulfill festive obligations, Mr Meldrew.

 

[HarvSFC]

Football League clubs play Saturday - Tuesday, Saturday - Tuesday most weeks and have also played the same days as the Premier League clubs over this festive period, yet all the moaning is coming from the Premier League bosses, those with the luxury of massive budgets and playing squads. Nothing to see here.

A winter break will of course get suggested again, but if that happened Mourinho and co. would have their team jetting off to China for money friendlies.

 

[Pagnell]

There may have been 4 matches in 10 days but there are still 6 other days to fulfill festive obligations, Mr Meldrew.

I no longer live near my club. But regardless, I simply have better things to spend my money on these days than travelling to and attending overpriced football matches, even before I had a family. I haven't been a regular match goer since the 90s as a result of the cost. But fair play to those that are willing to sacrifice aspects of theirs (or in some cases their family's no doubt) lives to do it. I love football, but it simply isn't that important to me that.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

I'm going to go off on one again here. Sorry.

The issue of players wages (which, incidentally, I think are obscene) has come up a couple of times in this discussion, but being objective about it, I rather think that the amount of money a player is paid (notice I don't say "earns") has nothing to do with his physical ability to perform at peak levels at times of excessive demand. In that regard, I sympathise. But only so far. Tell a nurse who has just come off her third twenty hour shift this week for the pittance she is paid, that footballers are tired after playing two matches of 90 minutes in a 72 hour period and see how sorry she feels for them.

I don't think a winter break is the answer (see "Festive Football - We Love It" thread) for a number of reasons, least of which is the certainty that big clubs would use the break to play lucrative friendlies. This would most likely be justified by "We need to make sure players stay match fit for when the league programme resumes".

This issue is really a problem of the foreign managers making. First Klopp got a big Wendy-on about it and now Pep's making noises too. As far as I can tell the subject of a winter break has, until now, been a minor issue, hardly spoken of and pretty much derided by most as wussy. But now a couple of big name managers are grumbling into Sky Sports microphones at post match interviews it's been picked up on by the studio chattering club and a bit of momentum for it is gathering.

Personally I think it would be bad for English football. Admit it, we'd all miss football at Christmas and there could be other ramifications later when fixtures began to pile up in April and May, as the season is coming to a head. I can hear it now: "We're fighting against relegation here and we have to play all these matches. It's crazy to make players play so many games now when they're knackered at the end of a long season and there's so much at stake."

Go on.... tell me that'd never happen.

I reckon the next thing to be demanded (by the big clubs, natch) would be cutting the Premier League to 18 clubs to reduce the fixture "burden" to a 34 match league season.

Let's speculate on where things might lead to. I can imagine that the next demand would be for the 20 (or 18) Premier League clubs to enter the FA Cup at the 4th round stage, which would mean that, of the 32 clubs left in the competition at that point, only 12 (or 14) would be from outside of the top flight. Is that fair..? The next demand to follow hot on the heels would likely be to abandon having replays and instead going straight to penalties in the event of a draw.

Where would it end..?

We set a dangerous precedent when we allow a small number of disgruntled individuals, all of whom would be acting entirely out of self interest, to dictate how our game is structured.

In a few years time, the likes of Klopp and Guardiola may be offered a bigger deal elsewhere. Perhaps they might just get itchy feet..... "Premier League..? Been there, done that. Time to move on." They'd be gone and leave behind the legacy of a football structure that doesn't remotely resemble what we have at this time, and have come to love for many generations.

Yep.... in England, players have to play a lot of game at Christmas. That's a given.

But they know that when they sign the contract.

 

[Super_horns]

funny how all the foreign managers complain but yet knew about them before coming

Pardew, Moyes and Hughes have complained too - they aren't foreign ofcourse and should certainly understand the traditions !

Basically it's just the Premier league managers who moan but they should have the strongest squads to cope!

 

[Kyle Hatch]

I agree with much of what is said above. I do believe we should keep the festive structure. I would like to see the league cup retired, or do as they do in Germany (i think) and have it as a pre season tournment, instead of meaningless friendlies have a meaningless cup competition, admittidly one that allows you into europe.

The november international break is meant to be going with FIFA's new calender structure working with UEFA new odd year euro tournament thingy.

Just from these minor changes it would allow for the fixtures to remain as is, except perhaps after the 3rd round of the cup, teams have 1 week off in jan, after the festive period just for a little recharge. But have the FA have some balls and say, we will only do this if you sign up to agreement that you won't play friendlies during this period. Punishment being expellement from the FA prymid. Pipe dream i know, but i feel it's as close to a sensible suggestion as we're going to get and satisifies all, festive footy, a little break and maybe less mid week games earlier/later on.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The big issue for me and why I oppose arguments for a winter break is the winter break not being the problem.

Exactly on same way I don’t support b teams as this isn’t the problem with the lack of English youth development.

Congestion in top flights can be easily solved here by:

A: ending the league cup
B: making champs league and europa unseeded one game knock-outs like fa cup
C: stopping teams going on tours outside uk in the summer and put them back to simple uk based camps with less travelling and more rest time.

I’d agree to a winter break the moment any of these areas are talked about, but they won’t and they are 100% the issue, not playing 2 games a week in December.

 

[Super_horns]

2nd and 3rd will never happen - too much money in the game now so they don't want to lose revenue..

The winter break in Italy and Spain is only about 1-2 weeks anyway..

Maybe all the Premier league games ought to be played at the same time as they used to be but of course Sky/BT wouldn't want that!

 

[mistermagic]

Regarding the FA Cup, you can understand why the big clubs are fielding B sides in it given the amount of games they're playing the week preceding 3rd round day. Take Spurs for example. They played yesterday, they're playing tomorrow and they're hosting Wimbledon on Sunday. That's very tough week which really shouldn't be as heavy as it is.

Regarding the League Cup, get rid of it. It's useless. It degrades the FA Cup and the less knowledgeable fans still wonder what the difference between the two is (it's alright in England but in France all the games are played in midweek (apart from this weekend which is very similar to FA Cup 3rd round day in England) so there is litterally very little difference between the two comps). It's a useless competition that should be scrapped. It also gives reason to people who moan that there is too much football. Get rid asap.

 

[Camborne Gills]

Just get on with it you nancy boys. We have 46 games plus the League and FA Cups, and the Trophy thingy. The current PL player doesn't know he is born as not that many years ago, there were 42 league games, 2-legged 2nd round League Cup ties, and numerous FA Cup replays, and there weren't international weekends either.

Bunch of overpaid tarts the lot of 'em

 

[Cornish Piskie]

With all the comments about the League Cup I decided to do a little digging. Yeah, I know I'm a bit of a spotter but please always bear in mind I'm a rugby fan whose interest in football has only come about in the last few years so I have to learn as I go.... and you guys are brilliant, by the way. A very knowledgeable bunch so please bear with me. I do take in the things that are said on here.

As I understand it, the Football League Cup was innovated at the start of the 1960s when there were only two domestic competitions (The League and FA Cup), European football was still very limited and internationals were much less frequent than now. The FA run the FA Cup (natch) and the England international team. The Football League ran the professional divisions 1 to 4 but that was all. They wanted a cup competition they could call their own, hence the Football League Cup.

Floodlit midweek football between English and European clubs had become highly successful and popular * but it was restricted to the major clubs. The FL reckoned that as more and more clubs installed floodlighting a midweek floodlit competition would stimulate interest and bring in revenue for smaller clubs who had no chance of qualifying for European competition. The final was a two-leg home-and-away affair, just like European matches.

It obviously didn't appeal to the big clubs. Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs, Wolves.... and a number of other clubs in the top flight at that time all spurned it. They didn't join in until after 1967 when the League made the final a one match Wembley day out and a place in the Inter Cities Fairs Cup (now Europa League) for the winners was also dangled as bait..... provided they came from the top two divisions, which was a bummer for QPR and Swindon who both won it while in the third division (League One) in '67 and '69 respectively .

Bob Paisley once said that he liked the League Cup because it meant that whatever else happened, winning it meant that Liverpool had qualified for Europe next season halfway through March. A good point at that time.

The League Cup kinda worked for a while but has been monkeyed around with so much down the years that it's rather lost its way. There are all sorts of other tournaments for lower league clubs and since the advent of the Premier League it's become a pain in the butt for the major clubs who aren't really interested in it until their B teams have gotten them to the semi final. Then they give a damn.

Midweek floodlit competitions are no longer the novelty they once were, the biggest clubs are only interested in the Champions League. A place in the Europa is not as attractive as it once was and yes, the League Cup does add to fixture congestion.

Should it be scrapped..? Perhaps, but my sentimental side says that would be a shame. It's difficult to see how this can be reconciled and I'd pass suggestions for that to you guys. You know more about this than me.



*
Whilst digging I found this.....

https://rednbluearmy.co.uk/articles/18-04-17-back-day-april-18th-real-madrid-visit-selhurst-park

That must have been one heck of a night for a then third division club with little realistic aspiration for higher things. And it's a pretty good indicator of how tempting it must have been for the Football League to envisage how popular a midweek floodlit competition might become. And hey... what a great trivia question that's gotta be in future:

Against which club did Real Madrid play their first ever match in London..? Crystal Palace.

Get your mates at work with that one fellas..!!

 

[mistermagic]

Very informative post, CP. Thanks for that.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

Very informative post, CP. Thanks for that.

You're welcome. I enjoy finding these things out about football.

I think it helps to know the background to things when we talk about abandoning or changing this or that aspect of the game.

 

[Meadow]

Give over. The Prem clubs only play 38 league matches as opposed to 46 for Championship, L1 and L2. Okay, the high flying clubs have the Champions League/Europa League but that's the price they pay for being successful. Live with it. The likes of Hereford, Slough and Leatherhead are still playing catchup having had phenominal runs in the FA Cup. Are they complaining? No.

 

[Jockney]

all the knee-jerk 'fuck u i ain't feeling sorry for footballers' stuff, but that isn't what these managers are saying at all? It seems almost self-evident, given the pace the game is played at these days, that footballers need more recovery time to be able to meet the almost olympic levels of athleticism and endurance required from them week in, week out.