Welcome to the FL Sutton

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

I'm not saying it's better or worse, and you're right, it's because there's only one automatic promotion spot.

But at some point the EFL are gonna notice how weird it is that four teams get promoted/relegated between L1 and L2 and even that up. And I'm sure they'll adopt the same play-off system as the National League because it means more crucial games and keeps more teams competitive to the end of the season.

That's the other thing; in the traditional play-offs some of the semi-finals are over after the first leg so you have a dead rubber second leg. When it's a straight knockout every game matters.

The EFL won't notice it at all, it's been the case since 1958 when the third and fourth tiers became national divisions and will never be changed. I personally think it should be 4 up and 4 down in every national division. But the Premier League would never allow that to happen. But I don't think it's weird because, for a lot of clubs at our level, promotion out of League Two is as good as it'll get for many, so why change it to 3 up 3 down?

Sky wouldn't allow changes to the playoff system either and, as a previous poster said, a guaranteed home playoff game is vital for clubs revenue at FL levels. Furthermore, I believe Gillingham proposed the playoff system the Conference adopted way back in the early 2000s when they were a Championship club. It was overwhelmingly voted against as it was deemed to be too American, with many not happy about the prospect of 8th place in the Championship potentially being able to gain promotion to the Premier League through a playoff.

I do, however, agree that this playoff system is better for the Conference owing to the fact there's only one automatic spot to gain. If it ever went to 3 up 3 down though, I'd be for a return to the traditional format. However, I doubt that'll ever happen...

As for the original topic of the post, I'm glad to see Sutton promoted. Seem to be a proper club (my knowledge of Southern non league football teams isn't the best) and I'm looking forward to a trip down to Gander Green Lane in the next 12 months (COVID permitting) for either a neutral game or, if possible, we get them in the FA Cup!

 

[Monkey Tennis]

The EFL won't notice it at all, it's been the case since 1958 when the third and fourth tiers became national divisions and will never be changed. I personally think it should be 4 up and 4 down in every national division. But the Premier League would never allow that to happen. But I don't think it's weird because, for a lot of clubs at our level, promotion out of League Two is as good as it'll get for many, so why change it to 3 up 3 down?

Sky wouldn't allow changes to the playoff system either and, as a previous poster said, a guaranteed home playoff game is vital for clubs revenue at FL levels. Furthermore, I believe Gillingham proposed the playoff system the Conference adopted way back in the early 2000s when they were a Championship club. It was overwhelmingly voted against as it was deemed to be too American, with many not happy about the prospect of 8th place in the Championship potentially being able to gain promotion to the Premier League through a playoff.

I do, however, agree that this playoff system is better for the Conference owing to the fact there's only one automatic spot to gain. If it ever went to 3 up 3 down though, I'd be for a return to the traditional format. However, I doubt that'll ever happen...

As for the original topic of the post, I'm glad to see Sutton promoted. Seem to be a proper club (my knowledge of Southern non league football teams isn't the best) and I'm looking forward to a trip down to Gander Green Lane in the next 12 months (COVID permitting) for either a neutral game or, if possible, we get them in the FA Cup!

The thing is, most of the stuff you're pointing to is ancient history. Football loves Americanisation nowadays. And Sky couldn't give a fuck about if clubs get a fair amount of revenue.

There'll be a reorganisation at some point, whether that's changing the number of teams in each division, adopting a "League 3", including PL academy teams or just making all the divisions equal in terms of promotion/relegation. They might even do something bizarre like the top half and bottom half get separated and play each other like in Scotland and other countries. Nothing will stay the same forever, and it'll always be driven by money and what the TV companies think is more exciting.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

The thing is, most of the stuff you're pointing to is ancient history. Football loves Americanisation nowadays. And Sky couldn't give a fuck about if clubs get a fair amount of revenue.

There'll be a reorganisation at some point, whether that's changing the number of teams in each division, adopting a "League 3", including PL academy teams or just making all the divisions equal in terms of promotion/relegation. They might even do something bizarre like the top half and bottom half get separated and play each other like in Scotland and other countries. Nothing will stay the same forever, and it'll always be driven by money and what the TV companies think is more exciting.

You're right they're trying it. A constant array of stupid ideas have been proposed too. But Shaun Harvey's Whole Game Solution was laughed out 5 years ago (including the PL, 5 divisions of 20 teams, criticised as a backdoor entry for B teams). Rick Parry's Project Big Picture was laughed off despite many idiotic Chairmen who didn't read the small print being all for it and, you're right, another radical plan will be proposed in the next couple of years. But fans at lower league levels are very resistant to change, and all it'll take for the whole pyramid to collapse is adopting one of these proposals. Because many traditionalists, such as myself, will be done with football if anything too radical happens.

Regionalisation is often brought up but that'd just reduce the amount of promotion spots plus make things incredibly boring for many middle of the road teams.

Reducing the size of the divisions won't work, neither will adding another division to the FL as it would further divide the EFL media money.

Premier League pulling up the promotion drawbridge would end lower league football in this country.

The significant changes I'd make are booting B teams out of the FL Trophy, a more regulated and stricter salary cap and punishments for clubs who fail to pay wages on time. I can't see anything else other than these going down well with the vast majority of fans.

 

[Boz]

Agree with most of what you say, TNO, but would prefer a properly regulated Financial Fair Play to a salary cap, which feels like more of a blunt instrument.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Agree with most of what you say, TNO, but would prefer a properly regulated Financial Fair Play to a salary cap, which feels like more of a blunt instrument.

Aye I should've been more specific. I think a one size fits all cap is useless if not all divisions adopt it. The current system is good on paper but people exploit it too easily.

Clubs being allowed to make loss upon loss is unacceptable. It wouldn't have been allowed in the past. But it is now.

A restricted squad size is a must have if we're to have a more regulated financial fair play system though. As the current system allows sides like Salford to stockpile players rotting in their reserves on high wages so no other side can have them, which shouldn't be allowed at all.

 

[Casey]

I would not object to u23 teams in the fl trophy if it wasn't a back door to get u23 teams into the football league. Taken on its own merits its not a bad idea.

Spending caps worry me. I cannot make up my mind if (say) Salford should be allowed to spend more money because they have more income or (say) Bradford should be allowed to spend more because they have more fans. What I think we can all agree on is clubs spending beyond their means has to be curtailed somehow. The problem with football clubs is that people do not run them to make money. Most owners run them at a loss because they are fans of the club or want to have their ego massaged by adoring fans.

One thing I would change straight away if I could would be the difference in bankruptcy pay outs to footballing creditors and other creditors. It would focus the mind of the players thinking of going to a club paying over the odds (will I actually get all this money?) and would stop the penny in the pound pay outs to local businesses.

Casey

 

[PuB]

The football creditors rule is a strange one, in practically every other country it’s the tax man first.

 

[masi51]

I'm not saying it's better or worse, and you're right, it's because there's only one automatic promotion spot.

But at some point the EFL are gonna notice how weird it is that four teams get promoted/relegated between L1 and L2 and even that up. And I'm sure they'll adopt the same play-off system as the National League because it means more crucial games and keeps more teams competitive to the end of the season.

That's the other thing; in the traditional play-offs some of the semi-finals are over after the first leg so you have a dead rubber second leg. When it's a straight knockout every game m

I would not object to u23 teams in the fl trophy if it wasn't a back door to get u23 teams into the football league. Taken on its own merits its not a bad idea.

Spending caps worry me. I cannot make up my mind if (say) Salford should be allowed to spend more money because they have more income or (say) Bradford should be allowed to spend more because they have more fans. What I think we can all agree on is clubs spending beyond their means has to be curtailed somehow. The problem with football clubs is that people do not run them to make money. Most owners run them at a loss because they are fans of the club or want to have their ego massaged by adoring fans.

One thing I would change straight away if I could would be the difference in bankruptcy pay outs to footballing creditors and other creditors. It would focus the mind of the players thinking of going to a club paying over the odds (will I actually get all this money?) and would stop the penny in the pound pay outs to local businesses.

Casey

Casey this is proberbly the best post i have seen in the 13 months visiting here
Why should a footballer who has underproduced on 5k a week get 100% of his wages
when a club goes into administration...............yet a one man band carpet fitter on 25k a year
will only get 35p in the pound..............i came very close to fucking my team who i have supported since i was 5

 

[Chris FGR]

I would individually budget cap clubs based on attendances/matchday income and any profits made from transfers the previous season. All clubs would need to break even at the end of each season or face a stricter cap the next year. Failure to break even for 3 successive seasons, or breaking the cap should result in an automatic points deduction and transfer embargo.

 

[Trapdoor]

I would individually budget cap clubs based on attendances/matchday income and any profits made from transfers the previous season. All clubs would need to break even at the end of each season or face a stricter cap the next year. Failure to break even for 3 successive seasons, or breaking the cap should result in an automatic points deduction and transfer embargo.

This is a reasonable approach.

Toy teams like Salford shouldn't be in the football league, they aren't sustainable and have fuck all fans, so nobody cares if they eventually get relegated or go bust.

Teams like Bolton, (while detestable,) at least have a significantly large fan base who actually care whether the club survives and would probably restart the club were they ever to go to the wall. (See: Aldershot, Wimbledon etc.) Those are the teams deserving of football league status.

 

[denzel ecfc]

If Bromley win - OK, unlikely from 7th - they will also need to reinstate grass.

Probably not enough time before the season starts so maybe a few games at Palace for those playing Bromley early doors

 

[Carver]

Well done chaps. I don't get to watch NL football that often, but people are saying your promotion is a thoroughly deserved one and who am I to disagree?

Your success means you Sutton fans will get to post in this part of the forum and there's loads of good posters in here. Also, while this forum is probably not as busy as the NL one, at least you won't have to put up any more with all the the 'proper' vs 'tinpot' vs 'hobby' club debates any longer. Or the brotherhood and natural order (LOL) crap.

On a personal note, it's a pity I won't get to watch the U's play at your lovely ground next season.

View attachment 14403

Oh wonderful, another jumped up little non league club comes up.

They'll have no fans, play on a tiny anti football pitch, be a team full of shithouses and no doubt have more money than us.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

The football creditors rule is a strange one, in practically every other country it’s the tax man first.

It's the worst rule in football by a considerable distance.

How many clubs have been shaking buckets at deaths door, where local businesses within the vicinity of the affected football club are forced to close down and tradesmen are left out of pocket because the administrators force them to take 20p in the pound or you get fuck all.

What's even worse is, that these new prospective owners can often afford to pay full whack, they just don't want to. Sure, it's not a legal requirement for an incoming owner to pay every creditor their full debt, but they have to pay footballers their full wage? It doesn't add up.

And the biggest insult to injury? Look at Bournemouth 15 years ago or Palace 12 years ago. Both were going to the wall, both caused local businesses to go to the wall when they were rescued, only to acquire an embarrassment of Premier League riches in the future.

Sometimes it pays to run a club into the ground so some rich lads can buy it on the cheap. Sure there's a risk it could go tits up but I find that rules such as the creditors rule give no incentive for teams to be run properly in this country.

Failure to pay the tax man in Spain or Italy and you're expelled. Failure to meet strict financial requirements set by an independent regulator in France and Germany (the type of regulator which the Premier League are vehemently opposed to in English football) and you're demoted. So why does English football have to be different?

There needs to be more incentives to run clubs more efficiently in the country. But as spending money drives up interest and TV rights deals, the PL and EFL really couldn't give a toss about it...

 

[valefan16]

Play Off system is fine in the EFL (not that we’d know as it’s been 28 years since we’ve been in them!) but as ive said before League Three would make sense these days (I don’t mean with U21 sides either) as the National League has enough professional big clubs to be classed as part of the EFL system, thus bring those 24 into the football league system and start the Non League from the 6th tier level. Thus then you have the EFL play offs in L3.

Salary caps like last season started are not the right way, it hindered the clubs who had money and bigger fan bases. If they have the money you should be allowed to spend it however the “if you have the money” part is the key factor rather than spending what you don’t have so tighter rules on operating at a loss etc.

It’s a tricky one though football finance. Vale’s 2012 administration occurred without us overspending, at least Bolton, Portsmouth or most clubs get the glory days of overspending before it comes crashing down... we just had a colossal mess off the field, most of which is still under investigation I think in terms of some of the characters involved in it. Example that fans groups don’t always work. Fans are the ones who suffer with deductions when the punishment should be those who cause it.

 

[Chris FGR]

Why would league 3 be a good idea?

Doesn’t that just means spreading sponsorship/tv money/central funding around more clubs and having more clubs to fit into the EFL Cup/Trophy.

As it is the National League gets it’s own TV deal, can agree it’s own sponsorships and it’s clubs get to play in the FA Trophy. By all means increase promotion/relegation if you want but why merge the leagues?

 

[Luke Imp]

Why would league 3 be a good idea?

Doesn’t that just means spreading sponsorship/tv money/central funding around more clubs and having more clubs to fit into the EFL Cup/Trophy.

As it is the National League gets it’s own TV deal, can agree it’s own sponsorships and it’s clubs get to play in the FA Trophy. By all means increase promotion/relegation if you want but why merge the leagues?

Agreed, it's a terrible idea. On top of that, what would happen to the PT sides currently in the NL and also the PT sides that get promoted from the NLN/NLS?

The NL acts as somewhere for the PT teams to aim for, the pinnacle for them, whilst being able to afford to do it. If the NL went into a fully professional L3, you'd have spaces to fill every season because not all PT can afford, or want, to be FT.