What makes a club "big"

Libertadores FC

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Had an argument on another forum about the comparisons in size of club between Leicester and Universitario, and I think this will be an interesting thread to start.

I know this sounds crazy, but to me, Universitario are a bigger club than Leicester City.

To me, being a big club doesn't mean currently being better. To me, what makes a club "big" is the fanbase of the club along with success.

The reason I consider Universitario to be bigger than Leicester is because Leicester have done nothing in their history, where as Universitario have reached the Copa Libertadores finals. I can agree that our 26 titles domestically doesn't mean much just because the English top flight has been historically better but we reached the final of one of the most prestigious competitions on earth.

Not to mention, we are the most popular club in a city with 8 Million people, and even outside of Lima we have lots of support. Universitario is by no means a massive club, or even that big, but we're probably a bigger club than Leicester who outside of this year have done fuck all in their history.

Our attendances doesn't speak much but we've filled up Peruvian league finals and that shows how fickle we are, and how much we care when it matters most.
 
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Dr Mantis Toboggan

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oh i do love a discussion on which club is bigger, it's not as if it's a meaningless metric or nothing is it
 
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AtaturkOzgutson

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Seattle Sounders are the second biggest club outside Europe in terms of attendances. They haven't even existed in their current form for a decade yet.

Are they bigger or smaller than Universitario? Or Leicester ''fuck all'' City?
 

markwwfc1992

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People always consider different aspects to 'what makes a club big'. I'm guessing the major criteria's are:

  • History of the club, trophies won etc...
  • Current standing of the club
  • Location, do they play in a major league/country
  • Fanbase
Using that for Leicester, their trophy cabinet has a nice Premier League title in it, but aside from that the cobwebs are still in the corners. As for current standing well they've just won the Prem, but if you go back to their recent history they are an average Championship club, with the odd spell in the Premier League or even as far down as League 1. Location, England, and again currently the PL, it doesn't get much bigger than that. Finally fanbase, Leicester have always been bang on average in my opinion, all the plastic bandwagon fans that have turned up this season will soon be gone after they lose a few games on the spin.

Overall Leciester are fairly 'big', but there are many English clubs that are 'bigger' so to speak. If you were to list it based on those bullet points, I'd say they are roughly about the 20-25 largest club in England at a guess. Sorry Lib but I don't know much about Universitario to comment, but i'd be curious to see how they compare based on those points.
 

Libertadores FC

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Never heard of Universitario.

Yeah, I'm sure many people outside of England haven't heard of Leicester until 2014 either.

Seattle Sounders are the second biggest club outside Europe in terms of attendances. They haven't even existed in their current form for a decade yet.

Are they bigger or smaller than Universitario? Or Leicester ''fuck all'' City?

Attendances aren't important if your fanbase is big.

Universitario have low attendances, but that's down to 2 reasons. Fickle fans and the stadium. We have a stadium in the top 20 biggest in the world. However, its a mess and more people go to watch our games at the Estadio Nacional which is where the NT play where we occasionally play.

Seattle may have attendances, but have a much, much lower fanbase than Universitario. Seattle barely has 600,00 people, where as Lima has 8 million, 3rd most populated in the America's. Peru has a 30 million population, and a lot of that population are fans of the club. Where as the only fans of Seattle are from Seattle. They also have no history. No North American club is big outside of Mexico.

Next up, domestically. Universitario's domestic titles mean fuck all internationally, but unfortunately for Seattle, its the same in the USA. I have seen both the Peruvian League and the MLS and I can here tell you the ONLY reason the MLS is better than the Peruvian league is because of designated players. Otherwise, they are a very similar standard. Both very low. Now internationally, Universitario reached the final of the Copa Libertadores in 1972, and that is more than anything Stoke, Norwich, or fucking Seattle have ever done in their history. Hard to say with Leicester after this year. Had we won that final, I would have been sure that Universitario are a bigger club than Leicester. Since we didn't, its hard to say after this year. Before this year, for sure we were bigger.

People always consider different aspects to 'what makes a club big'. I'm guessing the major criteria's are:

  • History of the club, trophies won etc...
  • Current standing of the club
  • Location, do they play in a major league/country
  • Fanbase
Using that for Leicester, their trophy cabinet has a nice Premier League title in it, but aside from that the cobwebs are still in the corners. As for current standing well they've just won the Prem, but if you go back to their recent history they are an average Championship club, with the odd spell in the Premier League or even as far down as League 1. Location, England, and again currently the PL, it doesn't get much bigger than that. Finally fanbase, Leicester have always been bang on average in my opinion, all the plastic bandwagon fans that have turned up this season will soon be gone after they lose a few games on the spin.

Overall Leciester are fairly 'big', but there are many English clubs that are 'bigger' so to speak. If you were to list it based on those bullet points, I'd say they are roughly about the 20-25 largest club in England at a guess. Sorry Lib but I don't know much about Universitario to comment, but i'd be curious to see how they compare based on those points.

Finally a proper post. Universitario's 26 domestic titles don't mean much internationally, while Leicester's 1 Premier League title does. However, Leicester have never done anything continental worth nothing in their history. Universitario have in one of the most prestigious competitions on earth in the Copa Libertadores.

We have had world class players in the past, so that scratches the history off the list. We aren't a big club to speak but we're bigger than most tinpot mid-table Premier League clubs that no one gives a shit about like Stoke and Norwich.

Current standing of the club, we are a League 1 side at best now. However this to me doesn't matter much unless you've totally gone to shit, which we haven't thankfully. We're shit but we are still one of the top teams in Peru, I'm talking about if we went down a division.

Location is the big one. We are from Lima, the third biggest city in the America's. 8 million people, and not only that, we are well supported across a 30 million populated Peru. We have a huge fanbase, bigger than you'd think. While our fanbase is solely in Peru, its a huge club in a 30 million population, while the only people who "care" about Leicester are from Leicester. I put that in quotes because I'm not counting all those artificial fans who only started supporting them this year.

Our attendances don't speak for this argument, but as I said we have very fickle fans. We've filled up domestic finals in one of the biggest stadiums in the world and that shows that we are capable of filling up if we wanted to.

Leicester just won one a more prestigious competitions on Earth.

Sorry, the Copa Libertadores is a more prestigious competition than the Premier League. Can't even compare. The Copa Libertadores' prestige is on UEFA Champions League level terms.
 

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Yeah, I'm sure many people outside of England haven't heard of Leicester until 2014 either.



Attendances aren't important if your fanbase is big.

Universitario have low attendances, but that's down to 2 reasons. Fickle fans and the stadium. We have a stadium in the top 20 biggest in the world. However, its a mess and more people go to watch our games at the Estadio Nacional which is where the NT play where we occasionally play.

Seattle may have attendances, but have a much, much lower fanbase than Universitario. Seattle barely has 600,00 people, where as Lima has 8 million, 3rd most populated in the America's. Peru has a 30 million population, and a lot of that population are fans of the club. Where as the only fans of Seattle are from Seattle. They also have no history. No North American club is big outside of Mexico.

Next up, domestically. Universitario's domestic titles mean fuck all internationally, but unfortunately for Seattle, its the same in the USA. I have seen both the Peruvian League and the MLS and I can here tell you the ONLY reason the MLS is better than the Peruvian league is because of designated players. Otherwise, they are a very similar standard. Both very low. Now internationally, Universitario reached the final of the Copa Libertadores in 1972, and that is more than anything Stoke, Norwich, or fucking Seattle have ever done in their history. Hard to say with Leicester after this year. Had we won that final, I would have been sure that Universitario are a bigger club than Leicester. Since we didn't, its hard to say after this year. Before this year, for sure we were bigger.



Finally a proper post. Universitario's 26 domestic titles don't mean much internationally, while Leicester's 1 Premier League title does. However, Leicester have never done anything continental worth nothing in their history. Universitario have in one of the most prestigious competitions on earth in the Copa Libertadores.

We have had world class players in the past, so that scratches the history off the list. We aren't a big club to speak but we're bigger than most tinpot mid-table Premier League clubs that no one gives a shit about like Stoke and Norwich.

Current standing of the club, we are a League 1 side at best now. However this to me doesn't matter much unless you've totally gone to shit, which we haven't thankfully. We're shit but we are still one of the top teams in Peru, I'm talking about if we went down a division.

Location is the big one. We are from Lima, the third biggest city in the America's. 8 million people, and not only that, we are well supported across a 30 million populated Peru. We have a huge fanbase, bigger than you'd think. While our fanbase is solely in Peru, its a huge club in a 30 million population, while the only people who "care" about Leicester are from Leicester. I put that in quotes because I'm not counting all those artificial fans who only started supporting them this year.

Our attendances don't speak for this argument, but as I said we have very fickle fans. We've filled up domestic finals in one of the biggest stadiums in the world and that shows that we are capable of filling up if we wanted to.



Sorry, the Copa Libertadores is a more prestigious competition than the Premier League. Can't even compare. The Copa Libertadores' prestige is on UEFA Champions League level terms.
Copa Liberwho?
 

AtaturkOzgutson

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I appreciate it's a bit frustrating to get such a curt response to such a detailed post. There is an argument to be had of how to compare sides from different continents, countries and leagues. However, I feel like this is cherry picking - You can't say ''we're amazingly supported, but fickle, and don't get good attendances'', for example - around direct comparisons between Leciester and Universitario. Or Seattle, you're comparing cities.

Finally, not meant at you necessarily as it's not an angle you've taken, but it really winds me up when people take 'history' to mean 'success'. Leicester may not have an illustrious history for example, but they've been playing the game since 1884. That IS history.
 

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Leicester winning the title doesn't make them a big club. Then again, no one I know will have ever heard of Universitario but I can bet loads of Peruvians will know who Leicester are.
 

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I appreciate it's a bit frustrating to get such a curt response to such a detailed post. There is an argument to be had of how to compare sides from different continents, countries and leagues. However, I feel like this is cherry picking - You can't say ''we're amazingly supported, but fickle, and don't get good attendances'', for example - around direct comparisons between Leciester and Universitario. Or Seattle, you're comparing cities.

Finally, not meant at you necessarily as it's not an angle you've taken, but it really winds me up when people take 'history' to mean 'success'. Leicester may not have an illustrious history for example, but they've been playing the game since 1884. That IS history.

If that was the case, Notts County would be the biggest club in the world.

Porto brings 32,000 people in stadium that fits 50,000 people. That's fickle, and are Porto not a big club?
Leicester winning the title doesn't make them a big club. Then again, no one I know will have ever heard of Universitario but I can bet loads of Peruvians will know who Leicester are.

I can here confirm no Peruvian gave a shit or maybe didn't even know about Leicester before 2014. I know its hard to admit a team from a footballing country is bigger than a top flight English team, but the truth is, no one outside of Leicester actually cares about Leicester.

Celtic is a similar club to Universitario. Decently sized club in a nothing league in a nothing footballing country.
 

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It depends. The club can be nationally, continentally, worldly big but not always all. And I think it's hard to compare these categories too.

The history, fanbase and structure of the club counts to label it "big" but for me more than anything the constancy and expression the club has in the zone (country, continent, world) it's being considered are the essential factors. And I agree sometimes being the better (winning a title) doesn't make the club big.

In this case, Universitário is a peruvian big club surely while Leicester despite of the success was still on the spot of their national league for one season, they of course can build a great path and become "big" but they still have to show more than one good season (like show they constantly can be strong in the leagues because the expression and success they already have) to be big. Though I still think comparing both clubs is hard to do.
 

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To say no one outside of Leicester cares about Leicester is false. It's like me saying no one outside of Lima cares about Universitario. Ever heard of a widespread fanbase?

You also can't blame low attendances on fickle fans and stadiums; pretty much every club in the world has fickle fans and if the team is 'big', the fans will be there anyway.
 

Libertadores FC

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To say no one outside of Leicester cares about Leicester is false. It's like me saying no one outside of Lima cares about Universitario. Ever heard of a widespread fanbase?

You also can't blame low attendances on fickle fans and stadiums; pretty much every club in the world has fickle fans and if the team is 'big', the fans will be there anyway.

There's a couple things wrong with this argument.

1. No one outside of Leicester care about Leicester. Maybe in England its widespread but still a low fanbase compared to the likes of Manchester United and even Leeds United! In Peru, people either care about South American football, or European level at the very top. Unfortunately, Leicester have barely ever competed at the top and spent most of their life in the lower leagues, and I hate to break it to you, absolutely NO ONE gives a single fuck about football below the Premier League outside of England.

2. There's more to just fans being fickle. However, look at the attendance of Universitario vs Real Garcilaso in late 2013. 46,000. That shows what we're really capable of doing, Leicester's stadium can only hold 32,000 people and that's the right number as that's about as much as it will ever fill up. We have the most widespread fanbase in the country along with Alianza Lima. Whenever we play away games outside of Lima, the stadium is full of Universitario fans, and those aren't away fans. They're locals. There are only 4 clubs in Peru that actually matter. The 3 big Lima teams and Cienciano.

Again, Porto is a huge team and rarely ever fills up but we never know that because they're always full in the Champions League. Look how much people Porto vs Bayern brought last season. 50,000 people. As opposed to an average league attendance of 32,000. Some fans are more fickle than others.

In your head maybe. For the sane people, not a fucking chance.

You're forgetting the fact that most South American teams were world class prior to 2004. I don't have to explain myself again do I? More intercontinental cups than the Europeans and the only reason Europe has taken over in that number in terms of Club World Cups won is because of leniency in foreign limitations and money. If football was anything like it was prior to the 90's, we'd still have world class teams.

The Copa Libertadores is a huge cup, and anyone who denies it in comparison to European cups, is euro centric. Comparing it to the Champions League is debatable but saying that its not even close to it is delusional if you consider all the facts.
 

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I'm not forgetting that, we had this debate before if you remember.

Just a heads up, I was right. ;)
 

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I'm not forgetting that, we had this debate before if you remember.

Just a heads up, I was right. ;)

I know you won the argument, but that didn't take away that South American WERE world class prior to 2004, with Riquelme's Boca in the early 2000's being the last one.

The Copa Libertadores is a huge competition, as I said whether its close to prestige as the UEFA Champions League is debatable, but saying that its far behind the UCL in terms of prestige, is delusional. One thing for sure though is that its much more prestigious than the Premier League.
 

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I know you won the argument.
Good lad.

I didn't say what you're saying though, I said it's not on the same level as the CL, I didn't mention how far off it was/is.

As for the Leicester Universiwhateveryou'recalled (I know really, it's in big fucking letter in your sig for starters) I'll let you have being the bigger club. I've no idea or interest in if you are or not.

We are considerably more famous than you now though.
752091-System__Resources__Image-857440.jpg
 

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Good lad.

I didn't say what you're saying though, I said it's not on the same level as the CL, I didn't mention how far off it was/is.

As for the Leicester Universiwhateveryou'recalled (I know really, it's in big fucking letter in your sig for starters) I'll let you have being the bigger club. I've no idea or interest in if you are or not.

We are considerably more famous than you now though.
752091-System__Resources__Image-857440.jpg

If you're talking about how far behind the Libertadores is in comparison to the Champions League now, then you're right in that we are far off. Not always been the case though, we were definitely the better continent in the 60's and 70's and some could argue the 80's although that was a lot harder to tell because South Americans began going to Europe by that point. HOWEVER, in terms of prestige we are not far off. As I said I consider it level terms with the UCL in terms of prestige.

As for Leicester being more famous, I don't think anyone can deny you were even more famous prior to winning the league. My point was that a larger population of people care about Universitario, than Leicester until obviously this year. England has 20 million more people than Peru, and I'm sorry, but not even 5 million people are Leicester fans if I had to have a guess. I'm obviously talking about the real fans though. Not the artificial fans that only started supporting them this year being Chelsea fans prior.
 

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So the gist of the whole thing is that Peru all love Uni, only people from Leicester love Leicester, therefore Uni is a bigger club because Peru has a larger population than Leicester.
Ok U(ni) win.
 

Libertadores FC

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So the gist of the whole thing is that Peru all love Uni, only people from Leicester love Leicester, therefore Uni is a bigger club because Peru has a larger population than Leicester.
Ok U(ni) win.

Yep, we win. Cheers. Even though we have much more than that.
 

JimJams

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Never won the premier league though have ya?
#tinpotuni
 

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But do you have 26 Peruvian league titles? ;)
 

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Now internationally, Universitario reached the final of the Copa Libertadores in 1972, and that is more than anything Stoke, Norwich, or fucking Seattle have ever done in their history.
not sure why you're bringing us into this but I'll have you know we won the milk cup twice and that's about as prestigious as copa libertadores.
 
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