JPT & B teams.

[Kenneth E End]

I'm disappointed that we've even voted for it to be discussed, especially given our vehement opposition in the national media.

That said, perhaps this is an opportunity for L1/L2 clubs that the PL reserve/youth teams are not as good as they think they are. I refer back to our pre season game with Arsenal U21 around 18 months ago when we beat them 7-0 and who looked totally naïve against direct, physical football as you get in the lower leagues.

If PL teams want to improve English youngsters and don't want them sitting in the stands or playing in front of one man and his dog, send them all out on loan. Doesn't seem to have been a problem for the youngsters we've signed under John Still's stewardship.

 

[shoddycollins]

I'm disappointed that we've even voted for it to be discussed, especially given our vehement opposition in the national media.

That said, perhaps this is an opportunity for L1/L2 clubs that the PL reserve/youth teams are not as good as they think they are. I refer back to our pre season game with Arsenal U21 around 18 months ago when we beat them 7-0 and who looked totally naïve against direct, physical football as you get in the lower leagues.

If PL teams want to improve English youngsters and don't want them sitting in the stands or playing in front of one man and his dog, send them all out on loan. Doesn't seem to have been a problem for the youngsters we've signed under John Still's stewardship.

We beat Southampton's Academy side 5-0 in the summer, and we're shit while Southampton's youth players are held up to be the future of England. So yeah I agree that however bright their futures might be, they will get a rude awakening when they come up against senior pros. Southampton's academy coaches probably expected us to beat them and figured it would be a good experience for them, which is probably one of the reasons they have such a good academy, but I wouldn't want to see that in a game that actually mattered to us.

 

[Gladders]

Appears Wimbledon got wrong end of the stick and no vote has taken place. Merely a conceptual proposal not formal, will be brought up again at the FL AGM.

Anyway I'm surprised at all those that would accept this in the JPT just because it is better than letting them in the league. Why even allow B teams at all, its down to fans to make sure this never happens, not to accept compromises

 

[Amber Andy]

At least the proposal has now been brought well and truly into the public domain, and pressure can be brought by fans on their clubs to vote no to this utterly ridiculous idea.

 

[Grecian O'Grecian]

Sneaking them in via the back door. Give it a few years and they'll be saying the young players in the B teams aren't gaining enough from playing a few games in the JPT and the FA will try to force them into the football league.

I was told about this last week. Group stages with the winners of each of the 16 groups moving into the round of sixteen.

 

[Wombletom]

At least the proposal has now been brought well and truly into the public domain, and pressure can be brought by fans on their clubs to vote no to this utterly ridiculous idea.

I have done my good deed for the week.

 

[Womble98]

Is there a petition going around anywhere?

 

[iWomble]

Appears Wimbledon got wrong end of the stick and no vote has taken place. Merely a conceptual proposal not formal, will be brought up again at the FL AGM.

An indicative and informal vote did take place which according to our report to Trust members "authorised the FL executive to finalise proposals". We voted not to take the idea as far as finalising proposals. No wrong end of the stick from us. If the media are reporting it as a definitive vote ensuring that it will definitely happen that's hardly our fault. https://twitter.com/KentWomble/status/572463124638502912

 

[LadyWomble]

Appears Wimbledon got wrong end of the stick and no vote has taken place. Merely a conceptual proposal not formal, will be brought up again at the FL AGM.

An indicative vote was taken. "If, Messrs FL lower league chairmen, a vote was taken to allow premiershit kids teams into the tin pot trophy, how would you vote?" The fact it was Alan Alger just makes it hilarious! Aren't you a Grimsby fan? Don't you remember some of that clown's ridiculous and pompous comments?! Sorry if I've got you mixed up with someone else ;-)

I'm surprised at all those that would accept this in the JPT just because it is better than letting them in the league. Why even allow B teams at all, its down to fans to make sure this never happens, not to accept compromises

Exactly, thin end of the wedge. Liking Shoddy's idea.

 

[Gladders]

An indicative vote was taken. "If, Messrs FL lower league chairmen, a vote was taken to allow premiershit kids teams into the tin pot trophy, how would you vote?" The fact it was Alan Alger just makes it hilarious! Aren't you a Grimsby fan? Don't you remember some of that clown's ridiculous and pompous comments?! Sorry if I've got you mixed up with someone else ;-)



Exactly, thin end of the wedge. Liking Shoddy's idea.

Actually I got it from the Against League 3 account not Alan Alger. They released a statement questioning Portsmouth for not voting No like Wimbledon and then apologised when it came out no vote had taken place.

 

[Womble98]

A vote did take place, it was an informal one, and it was just us who voted against.

 

[womble76]

No official reported vote but what else is a raising of hands to gain a general view On wether this should be investigated further.

 

[Murphy]

I couldn't put all of my rambling thoughts into a tweet, so I re-opened the Blogging files and wrote this, whether you like it or not is your own choice, just thought I'd share it here - http://thedaggersscale.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/the-curious-case-of-english-football.html

 

[Womble98]

https://www.change.org/p/the-footba...he-johnstone-s-paint-trophy?just_created=true

Any changes that need to be made let me know. Had a look for petitions but couldn't find any.

 

[This Charming Mike]

I couldn't put all of my rambling thoughts into a tweet, so I re-opened the Blogging files and wrote this, whether you like it or not is your own choice, just thought I'd share it here - http://thedaggersscale.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/the-curious-case-of-english-football.html

I wrote a similar piece after the World Cup about Futsal and how it would really help England in the future. Will try and dig it out.

 

[shoddycollins]

https://www.change.org/p/the-footba...he-johnstone-s-paint-trophy?just_created=true

Any changes that need to be made let me know. Had a look for petitions but couldn't find any.

I would personally reword the 'slippery slope' paragraph. The term 'slippery slope' is often applied to a fallacy whereby someone presumes that one action will always lead to further more extreme actions; like people arguing that allowing a mosque to open will somehow lead to the UK falling under sharia law, or putting up a traffic camera at an accident hotspot will lead to an Orwellian big-brother style state.

In truth the reason we believe that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy in this regard is that they have put forward the idea of B-teams before. That they would like B-teams playing in the lower leagues is well known, and will always be their ultimate goal. Allowing B-teams to participate in the JPT would encourage rather than satisfy them. I would state it in those terms without using the phrase 'slippery slope' just because wherever many people see the phrase 'slippery slope' they think 'this is going to be a load of bull'

 

[Dazza]

Im sure Sky will be licking their lips at the chance to show the jpt final between West Ham B v Everton B in front of 1000 people.I can't see the sponsors being happy if this idea goes ahead.Do the FA think fans of League 1 and 2 are going to be packing out their teams stadium when West Brom B etc turn up.

 

[Judge Dredd]

As I mentioned on the first page, someone on our forum contacted our Chief Exec about our "vote". Here's his (condensed) response:

I did contact the club. Got a really detailed response from Gary Sweet, the outlaws condensed version of which (from Gary) is:

- AFCW have got it wrong in their statement
- No such vote took place two weeks ago
- The meeting considered options for the JPT but ONLY if it could never be the thin end of the wedge*
- Vote won't happen until full details explored at the agm in june
- Clubs know what they're doing (mostly)

*for thin end of wedge, read League 3/B leagues

So basically confirming what the Pompey guy said earlier.

 

[Kim Mitten]

If this idea goes ahead then I hope the current rule about having 6/7 (can't remember exact number) 1st team players having to play or be fined is thrown out.
Then the competition can just become farcical - Southend Reserves v Stoke B - roll up, roll up.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

The fact they're proposing some sick and twisted dull Champions League format is disgusting. The Premier League and its teams full of generously overpaid mercenaries want everything for nothing, it didn't want to play a 42 game season in the 90s, it doesn't want to play FA Cup replays and indeed scrapped multiple replays, it doesn't want to play two legged League Cup ties like back in the day, most teams see the Europa League as a waste of time and most foreign managers cry about playing football over Christmas because of a fixture 'pile-up' where they have to play four games in about ten days, boo bloody hoo.

However then because they want their precious B team idea to become reality in the JPT, they want to cause fixture congestion to our calendar, making us play pointless Group Stage football, possibly the worst format in club football anyway given how dull games often are, and that will add to 46 league games and at least one FA Cup and one League Cup tie. I'm not sure that the players of League One and Two clubs will want to play Group Stage JPT football against B teams at least six times a season now would they?

Scrap this godawful idea before it hits a formal vote.

 

[Wombletom]

It would appear hat a vote did actually take place. Wether indicative, or informal. Surely the clue is in the word 'vote'

Still can't believe that every club didn't dismiss the crazy idea immediately..... It can only be about money.

Here you go small clubs, have some money..... But we're gonna take away any chance you have of reaching Wembley by infiltrating your competition with our reserve teams.
OH SHIT....,that last bit wasn't supposed to come out.

 

[Wombletom]

Appears Wimbledon got wrong end of the stick and no vote has taken place. Merely a conceptual proposal not formal, will be brought up again at the FL AGM.

Anyway I'm surprised at all those that would accept this in the JPT just because it is better than letting them in the league. Why even allow B teams at all, its down to fans to make sure this never happens, not to accept compromises

SORRY. But a vote did take place....... Surely, even an informal show of hands is classified as a vote.

 

[AdamStag]

Why have the clubs backed this though?

If it is purely financial then I think it is very small minded indeed, you will just get screwed over in the long term.

If this happens, I will not be watching another JPT game again, why should we have to do this?

Screwed over on TV money, screwed over on players, screwed over on fair representation and now screwed over in a cup as well.

Cheers for looking out for us!

 

[mnb089mnb]

Football clubs ALWAYS opt for short term financial gain over any long term thinking.

Unfortunately I think a lot of fans will lap this up. Arsenal B as an away side will probably attract more fans to games than Barnet or Southend. Though it'll be hard to see how interesting a game with Hull City B or Swansea City B would be to fans.

 

[iWomble]

As I mentioned on the first page, someone on our forum contacted our Chief Exec about our "vote". Here's his (condensed) response:

- AFCW have got it wrong in their statement
- No such vote took place two weeks ago
- The meeting considered options for the JPT but ONLY if it could never be the thin end of the wedge*
- Vote won't happen until full details explored at the agm in june
- Clubs know what they're doing (mostly)

Firstly, there was no 'statement'. It was minuted as part of our normal reporting mechanism to fans.

At this meeting, as Mark Catlin from Portsmouth makes clear, there *was* an indicative vote for the proposals to be finalised. It's pure sophistry and dissembling (and other long words) for Gary Sweet to hide behind whether or not that was a formal vote. A decision was taken that he went along with and we dissented from, and if the other clubs had too it would have all been stopped in its tracks. I'm not sure what else you call such a decision-making process.

I'm staggered at the statement that they "considered options for the JPT but ONLY if it could never be the thin end of the wedge". As far as the JPT is considered this *is* the bloody great big wedge with WEDGE written on it which changes the nature of the competition. It should be considered on its own dubious merits and rejected outright on principle.

However, it is exactly the thin end of the larger wedge into implanting B-teams into lower league football. The only argument in favour is a financial one, and that is the basis on which clubs will argue for it. They'll claim it will allow them to build new training grounds, invest in infrastructure, develop academy programmes etc. A cynic might suggest that in reality they'll spunk it on short-term promotion challenges and further fuel the wage inflation that cripples clubs.

By allowing it to get this far, they've already agreed that the principle is for sale. It's whether there are enough noughts on the cheque being waved this time. Next time, when it comes to participation in the league, there will be even more noughts.

The clubs do know what they're doing. And it's the wrong thing.

 

[Gashead]

That statement from Catlin sounds reassuring... not.

 

[That Fat Centre Half]

It's quite clear that there is maneovering going on behind be scenes here that we are not privy too. I know it sounds hollow but I trust Gary and I don't think he would vote for anything like this if he didn't have a clear plan going forward to get what he wants and thinks is right.

Im guessing the wedge thing he mentions is that they would allow them in but only if there were cast iron guarantee, for that read legally binding, that would be it as there would be no further integration of B teams in be league.

Which raises an interesting conceptual question, if B teams where allowed into the JPT but with a 100% legally binding guarantee that would be as far it could ever go and it would end the B team in the FL once and for all, forever would you accept that?

 

[shoddycollins]

Is it even possible to write a legally binding contract that would overrule all future decisions by the people who drew the contract up? It would be like a sort of constitution, but if the issue of B-teams in the League system does come up next year they'd say that the contract doesn't stop them discussing it, and ultimately if they all vote in favour they can just tear it up.

If you give a seagull a chip, that won't be the last you hear from that seagull.

 

[That Fat Centre Half]

I dont know whether you could, maybe they are exploring the idea of a league constitution or something of that sort. Just get the feeling that something is being worked on behind the scenes here. Or maybe I've been watching too much House of Cards.

I was more presenting a hypothetical question if there could be a guarantee in place.

 

[iWomble]

It's quite clear that there is maneovering going on behind be scenes here that we are not privy too. I know it sounds hollow but I trust Gary and I don't think he would vote for anything like this if he didn't have a clear plan going forward to get what he wants and thinks is right.

Im guessing the wedge thing he mentions is that they would allow them in but only if there were cast iron guarantee, for that read legally binding, that would be it as there would be no further integration of B teams in be league.

Which raises an interesting conceptual question, if B teams where allowed into the JPT but with a 100% legally binding guarantee that would be as far it could ever go and it would end the B team in the FL once and for all, forever would you accept that?

As shoddycollins says, I'm not sure you can get that cast iron guarantee legally.

But even if you could get that, there is absolutely no need to tie the two issues together. It's perfectly possible to say no B-teams in the JPT *and* try to put in place a guarantee of no B-teams in the League. The latter doesn't depend on the former.

If there's manoeuvring going on then Mark Catlin explicitly states what that is. The discussion was to establish whether there was "any appetite" for "a substantial financial payment" with regard to the letting B-teams into the JPT. We've just said we're not hungry, he's looking at the size of the cake.