Saturday 1st October 2022

masi51

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Have to admit I hate the idea of a salary cap. Us, Wednesday and derby are all getting 23k+ a week. Burton, Accrington etc get 10% of that.

If a salary cap is introduced, it is going to only affect the bigger clubs. Which is not at all fair. It takes these clubs half a season to get the same ticket revenue as we get in one game, and we’re punished for that? I’m not sure how that logically is fair.
Tried the salary cap did not work........Move on
Also would you count loan wages?
And if they have ffp would you count the income a stadium makes yearly and not just match days.
You may get 23k to our 17k but our stadium makes money every day of the year.
 

UppaTowen_ITFC

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Tried the salary cap did not work........Move on
Also would you count loan wages?
And if they have ffp would you count the income a stadium makes yearly and not just match days.
You may get 23k to our 17k but our stadium makes money every day of the year.
Do Bolton average 17k? Genuinely suprised it’s that high tbh. Good going that considering the location
 

masi51

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Do Bolton average 17k? Genuinely suprised it’s that high tbh. Good going that considering the location
Season tickets are well priced this season meaning we have just over 13k. We get about 3/4k walk ups and then whatever the away team bring. Shef Wed brought 5k in a crowd of 22k while Wycombe brought a few hundred in a crowd of over 17k
 

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Have to admit I hate the idea of a salary cap. Us, Wednesday and derby are all getting 23k+ a week. Burton, Accrington etc get 10% of that.

If a salary cap is introduced, it is going to only affect the bigger clubs. Which is not at all fair. It takes these clubs half a season to get the same ticket revenue as we get in one game, and we’re punished for that? I’m not sure how that logically is fair.
It was better in the early 80s when gate receipts for league games were shared between home and away sides as they are now in the cup. The big sides still make the most money but it’s not so drastic.

It was only changed when the big clubs realised they could gain an advantage by hoarding the cash themselves.
 

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Have to admit I hate the idea of a salary cap. Us, Wednesday and derby are all getting 23k+ a week. Burton, Accrington etc get 10% of that.

If a salary cap is introduced, it is going to only affect the bigger clubs. Which is not at all fair. It takes these clubs half a season to get the same ticket revenue as we get in one game, and we’re punished for that? I’m not sure how that logically is fair.
The difference being is that you have had many, many years in the top divisions, hence you have a bigger fan base which has accumulated over many years of relative success.

Such is the divides in revenue now (as opposed to your successful years) that a team like Burton, as it stands, will never get to the top league and have the chance over half a century or more to incrementally increase their fan base, which would happen if they were in the premier league for the next 40 years. Why did you deserve that right and they don't ?And then those fans stay and their turnover, ground, fan base gets bigger. Even in the not so distant past you had teams like Derby getting promoted and then winning the league! That is simply impossible now. Any team getting promoted to the premier league is basically playing for 17th place.

The thing with the bigger clubs is they're so blinkered to this and secretly want a closed shop. I'd much rather all teams have a fair crack at getting to the top league, right down to the non league, otherwise what's the point? Basically, what you're saying is that only clubs who have built a decent fan base due to many years of relative success ( at a time when it was feasible to get to the top division and be competitive)deserve to do well. Sport should be about skill and good coaching, not decided by money accrued through historical success whilst maintaining a barrier for those clubs that want to do the same. That's not sport, it's like who's got the most money.

Yes, let's have the same boring teams in cycle mixing between the two top leagues for the next 100 years. And lets have a cycle of Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea winning the premier league for the next 100 years. What a spectacle!
 
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valefan16

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I don't see the issue with a wage cap and don't mean it should be so tight Morecambe and Sheffield Wednesday spend the same on wages, but maybe 8k in L1 5k in L2 just to make it more competitive and less danger for smaller clubs trying to overspend to keep up.

You don't need to spend 10k-15k a week to get promoted out of this league unless your massively failing in other areas but we do risk a "closed shop" like the Premier League and Championship yo-yo has become. (Don't get me started on parachute payments!)

So called big clubs often seem to get rewarded for huge failure whereas smaller clubs such as Morecambe and Burton who have been punching for a few seasons seem to get hamstrung for success. The Accrington chairman on twitter makes a few valid points on this.

Getting paid £10k a week to kick a pig bladder around for a few hours a week at the third level of football is bonkers.
 

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As long as clubs are not spending cash and sending themselves into oblivion then everybody should be free to live within their means surely?

If Sheffield Wednesday have the capability to have a 7million pound playing budget then good for them. I hate the thought of sanitising the game even further and making it a “Level Playing Field” so that even the smallest clubs are equal.

I think it was reported that last season we had the 8th smallest budget in the league and we just missed out on the playoffs so there is always a chance. This seasons budget will be similar and have beaten Peterborough, Derby and Ipswich with a mixture of free transfers, loan signings and home grown products.
 

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One thing I have noticed - certainly since covid is that a lot of people have turned to non league football for their fix. I go a lot, and I love it.
With the money swilling around football ( in particular the top two divisions) more people will get disillusioned and disconnected with their clubs and looks elsewhere for that connection they used to have back in the 80s/90s.
I read somewhere ( can’t find the link ) that non league crowds are massively up,(65% sticks in my head ) as people go to their local teams instead.
I watched a lot of the conference play offs and conference north highlights and thoroughly enjoyed it. It seemed more raw and more engaging.
I think as football becomes more predictable and sanitised people will turn to the non league game.
I pay £7 to see Lichfield city at step 5 and my daughter is free. At Burton for the two of us to sit down it’s nearly £40. Before anything to eat or drink. Which is why I alternate it depending on the opponent.
 

LeonTheGreen

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Even with a wage cap, the bigger teams will still have the best players. A footballer based in the north is always going to pick Sheffield Wednesday over Morecambe. More potential. Bigger club. Better place to live.

I don’t think clubs should be held back from reaching their full potential because of a wage cap.
 

Bartonyellow

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Even with a wage cap, the bigger teams will still have the best players. A footballer based in the north is always going to pick Sheffield Wednesday over Morecambe. More potential. Bigger club. Better place to live.

I don’t think clubs should be held back from reaching their full potential because of a wage cap.
Maybe. If I had a chance to play for Plymouth or Luton say - I’d pick you, as Luton is a shithole.
 

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I don't see the issue with a wage cap and don't mean it should be so tight Morecambe and Sheffield Wednesday spend the same on wages, but maybe 8k in L1 5k in L2 just to make it more competitive and less danger for smaller clubs trying to overspend to keep up.

You don't need to spend 10k-15k a week to get promoted out of this league unless your massively failing in other areas but we do risk a "closed shop" like the Premier League and Championship yo-yo has become. (Don't get me started on parachute payments!)

So called big clubs often seem to get rewarded for huge failure whereas smaller clubs such as Morecambe and Burton who have been punching for a few seasons seem to get hamstrung for success. The Accrington chairman on twitter makes a few valid points on this.

Getting paid £10k a week to kick a pig bladder around for a few hours a week at the third level of football is bonkers.
An example. We had George Hirst on loan from Leicester last season who after a slow start turned in to a huge success.

At the end of the season he returned to Leicester, but all summer long it was clear that he wanted to join us and we wanted to sign him. There was much interest from other clubs understandably. The draw back - he was on £15k a week at Leicester and we couldn't afford that. Even trying to meet somewhere in the middle, we still couldn't do a deal. He ultimately signed for Blackburn on loan.

My point is, If we could afford £15k a week why shouldn't we have been allowed to sign Hirst?

If the likes of Sheff Weds could afford the wages, why should they be blocked from signing him (appreciate Hirst would never have gone there given the history).

A wage cap only works if you have all clubs practicing a policy of only spending what you can afford based on what finance you have generated. With any wage cap you'll always have a club on 3k a week gates offering £8k a week wages because their owner is pumping in huge amounts and tolerating huge losses. This does nothing for eradicating dangerous spending, but it penalises the clubs who balance the books. It's this practice that needs to be capped, not handicapping clubs from spending sustainable amounts on wages because they happen to generate a bigger income.
 

longmover

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An example. We had George Hirst on loan from Leicester last season who after a slow start turned in to a huge success.

At the end of the season he returned to Leicester, but all summer long it was clear that he wanted to join us and we wanted to sign him. There was much interest from other clubs understandably. The draw back - he was on £15k a week at Leicester and we couldn't afford that. Even trying to meet somewhere in the middle, we still couldn't do a deal. He ultimately signed for Blackburn on loan.

My point is, If we could afford £15k a week why shouldn't we have been allowed to sign Hirst?

If the likes of Sheff Weds could afford the wages, why should they be blocked from signing him (appreciate Hirst would never have gone there given the history).

A wage cap only works if you have all clubs practicing a policy of only spending what you can afford based on what finance you have generated. With any wage cap you'll always have a club on 3k a week gates offering £8k a week wages because their owner is pumping in huge amounts and tolerating huge losses. This does nothing for eradicating dangerous spending, but it penalises the clubs who balance the books. It's this practice that needs to be capped, not handicapping clubs from spending sustainable amounts on wages because they happen to generate a bigger income.

Your last paragraph is spot on and the cause of most of the trouble and its the most obvious financial doping to most fans.
 

BarrieOwl

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An example. We had George Hirst on loan from Leicester last season who after a slow start turned in to a huge success.

At the end of the season he returned to Leicester, but all summer long it was clear that he wanted to join us and we wanted to sign him. There was much interest from other clubs understandably. The draw back - he was on £15k a week at Leicester and we couldn't afford that. Even trying to meet somewhere in the middle, we still couldn't do a deal. He ultimately signed for Blackburn on loan.

My point is, If we could afford £15k a week why shouldn't we have been allowed to sign Hirst?

If the likes of Sheff Weds could afford the wages, why should they be blocked from signing him (appreciate Hirst would never have gone there given the history).

A wage cap only works if you have all clubs practicing a policy of only spending what you can afford based on what finance you have generated. With any wage cap you'll always have a club on 3k a week gates offering £8k a week wages because their owner is pumping in huge amounts and tolerating huge losses. This does nothing for eradicating dangerous spending, but it penalises the clubs who balance the books. It's this practice that needs to be capped, not handicapping clubs from spending sustainable amounts on wages because they happen to generate a bigger income.
Don't be so sure about Hirst returning. There were tentative talks in the summer and has been a massive thawing in relations recently.
 

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Don't be so sure about Hirst returning. There were tentative talks in the summer and has been a massive thawing in relations recently.
It should be his natural fit. I hope he does return at some point. I got the impression he sees that happening at some point in his career to complete the circle.

Be interesting to see what develops at Blackburn. If all he is used for is a cameo off the bench, or getting pulled after an hour if he hasn't scored, then they'll get the Rotherham version. Appears to be the case at the moment but they might just be managing his fitness after a pre-season injury. He needs a run of games to get in to his rhythm.
 

valefan16

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Vale Park close to a sell out* (within the reduced capacity) for Saturday's game with the Bycars the only stand left and that's down to limited availability.

Should be a good atmosphere. Hopefully we can have it rocking like the POSF.
 

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My point is, some of the smaller clubs will never get the chance to grow into a bigger club with a bigger fan base through a sustained period of success because the gap is too big. Wednesday, Bolton, Derby etc. were successful and built up a huge fan base (and hence a bigger budget now) during a time when the game wasn't awash with money. So basically it means that current smaller clubs will never be able to have a sustained period of success in the top division.

If Accrington went 50 years in the top league they'd probably be averaging 25000 now. It just doesn't sit right with me that the top divisions and even this league is becoming a closed shop. With a wage cap, the best players would still gravitate to the bigger teams but it would stop likes of man city buying up loads of the best young players and leaving them to rot. It would also make for a far more engaging, working class sport rather than the complete chasm there is between players and fans now.
 

masi51

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My point is, some of the smaller clubs will never get the chance to grow into a bigger club with a bigger fan base through a sustained period of success because the gap is too big. Wednesday, Bolton, Derby etc. were successful and built up a huge fan base (and hence a bigger budget now) during a time when the game wasn't awash with money. So basically it means that current smaller clubs will never be able to have a sustained period of success in the top division.

If Accrington went 50 years in the top league they'd probably be averaging 25000 now. It just doesn't sit right with me that the top divisions and even this league is becoming a closed shop. With a wage cap, the best players would still gravitate to the bigger teams but it would stop likes of man city buying up loads of the best young players and leaving them to rot. It would also make for a far more engaging, working class sport rather than the complete chasm there is between players and fans now.
you have spent the first two months saying there is no gap between the big and small clubs in this league
Now you are saying otherwise........
 

leedsvaliant

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you have spent the first two months saying there is no gap between the big and small clubs in this league
Now you are saying otherwise........
I think you'll find I didn't. What I said was that it was purported in this league that there is this vast gulf in quality between the top and the bottom of this league, which there isn't...it's league 1. In fact, it's quite embarrassing that some of these clubs with huge budgets still can't turn out a team that should wipe the floor with Vale. The talk at the beginning of the season was basically that the smaller teams shouldn't bother turning up. Will the teams with the biggest budget ultimately finish near the top? Of course, and that's part of the problem. When sport is measured by spending power, rather than skill and good coaching, it ceases to become a sport.
 
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Royalowl

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My point is, some of the smaller clubs will never get the chance to grow into a bigger club with a bigger fan base through a sustained period of success because the gap is too big. Wednesday, Bolton, Derby etc. were successful and built up a huge fan base (and hence a bigger budget now) during a time when the game wasn't awash with money. So basically it means that current smaller clubs will never be able to have a sustained period of success in the top division.

If Accrington went 50 years in the top league they'd probably be averaging 25000 now. It just doesn't sit right with me that the top divisions and even this league is becoming a closed shop. With a wage cap, the best players would still gravitate to the bigger teams but it would stop likes of man city buying up loads of the best young players and leaving them to rot. It would also make for a far more engaging, working class sport rather than the complete chasm there is between players and fans now.
Don't really get your point. If Wednesday, Bolton etc built up their fanbases when there was little money about, then surely that is a good thing, and nothing would have stopped Port Vale, Burton Albion or the Dog and Duck from doing the same thing?
 

leedsvaliant

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Don't really get your point. If Wednesday, Bolton etc built up their fanbases when there was little money about, then surely that is a good thing, and nothing would have stopped Port Vale, Burton Albion or the Dog and Duck from doing the same thing?
You're right. But that should always be the case. Why should there be a cut off point for others to do the same? There should always be a pathway and opportunity for every team to do the same, irrelevant of the time period. Otherwise what's the point? There are colossal stumbling blocks in place now that weren't there historically which are insurmountable to all but a select few teams. I'd be delighted for an Accrington or a Kidderminster to grow and fight with the big boys, and have sustained periods of success, but as is representative on here, it seems that the big boys feel threatened they might not be big boys forever.
 
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valefan16

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You're right. But that should always be the case. There should always be a pathway and opportunity for every team to do the same, irrelevant of the time period. Otherwise what's the point? There are colossal stumbling blocks in place now that weren't there historically which are insurmountable to all but a select few teams.
Correct.

Its something that causing Wednesday or Ipswich problems too...

Lets say they get promotion, next year they want to challenge and bring back their top flight days...

but Leicester City who are similar in size and have just been relegated have a massive budget because they got given X Millions of pounds in parachute payments. Its bonkers how football finance is run.

I recall Wigan struggling down here in 2015ish and then they spent £1 million in January because they were still getting these payments despite now being a League One side! (get them for three years) and then they went up.
 

masi51

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people are getting ambition and reality mixed up.....What do you expect of your club????
I would say there are 6/8 clubs in this league who have got as far as they will ever go now that is reality.

Another 6/8 clubs can and will climb higher but none are ever going to be Champions league winners
I would say Bolton could get back in the premier league but we would be a FGR of that league....a little out of our depth and happy to finish 17th

Accrington and FGR are over achieving simple as
 

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people are getting ambition and reality mixed up.....What do you expect of your club????
I would say there are 6/8 clubs in this league who have got as far as they will ever go now that is reality.

Another 6/8 clubs can and will climb higher but none are ever going to be Champions league winners
I would say Bolton could get back in the premier league but we would be a FGR of that league....a little out of our depth and happy to finish 17th

Accrington and FGR are over achieving simple as
And if you are trying to finish 17th every season you surely start to question what’s the point. Maybe you are better been a big fish in a little pond and win more games than you lose and go To away games with terracing like us, accy, fgr and morecambe. Oh and fleetwood.
Enjoy it for what it is. Everyone is chasing something they can’t always have.
 
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leedsvaliant

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people are getting ambition and reality mixed up.....What do you expect of your club????
I would say there are 6/8 clubs in this league who have got as far as they will ever go now that is reality.

Another 6/8 clubs can and will climb higher but none are ever going to be Champions league winners
I would say Bolton could get back in the premier league but we would be a FGR of that league....a little out of our depth and happy to finish 17th

Accrington and FGR are over achieving simple as
But why should that be set in stone? Why should it be the case that small clubs will remain small forever and big clubs should remain big? As I said earlier, if Accrington had been in the top division for over 50% of their existence, they'd be a big team with big support. The whole point of a league system is to provide a pathway all the way to the top, but if that's blocked for only a select few then it doesn't remain as a sport does it?

If the status quo remains, football will get boring very quickly. It'll be the same 2 or 3 teams going up and down to the premier league and the same top 6. In 50 years time, I can see people turning away from football because it's so far removed from the people's game.
 

denzel ecfc

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Maybe. If I had a chance to play for Plymouth or Luton say - I’d pick you, as Luton is a shithole.
Tap in avoided...

The thing is, if you're a young player you want to stay near London, Birmingham or Manchester and that will mean Luton is more attractive than Plymouth.
 

K-Win

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The talk at the beginning of the season was basically that the smaller teams shouldn't bother turning up.
So you're still banging that drum.......

If the status quo remains, football will get boring very quickly. It'll be the same 2 or 3 teams going up and down to the premier league and the same top 6. In 50 years time, I can see people turning away from football because it's so far removed from the people's game.
Guess what? The status quo has already been there for well over 50 years:
1664390238517.png

... and still we go and watch our teams, hoping that we can somehow break into the club. It's getting increasingly unlikely with the wealth gap being as it is. There's very little we can do about it as fans of lower league clubs. If you enjoy watching and supporting your club then carry on doing it. That's enough for most of us.
 

masi51

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And if you are trying to finish 17th every season you surely start to question what’s the point. Maybe you are better been a big fish in a little pond and win more games than you lose and go To away games with terracing like us, accy, fgr and morecambe. Oh and fleetwood.
Enjoy it for what it is. Everyone is chasing something they can’t always have.
So you actually think one day Burton will play Barcelona in the champions league final
Not happening. So why cant you be happy at where Burton are .......Well maybe not rooted at the bottom but apart from your jolly in the championship you are about where you will ever be
 

valefan16

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Interestingly the previous owner of Masi’s club actually wanted a closed shop (which now would shut Bolton out of the ever making the top flight)
 

masi51

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Interestingly the previous owner of Masi’s club actually wanted a closed shop (which now would shut Bolton out of the ever making the top flight)
wrong...............He was a paid chairman
Never owned us
 

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So you actually think one day Burton will play Barcelona in the champions league final
Not happening. So why cant you be happy at where Burton are .......Well maybe not rooted at the bottom but apart from your jolly in the championship you are about where you will ever be
You misunderstand me. I was not having a pop, I was saying - if I was a Bolton fan, and the aspiration is to get the prem and aim for 17th every season and be a small club in that league, then what is the point ? Is it not better to be down here winning games and having more fun ? It’s an observation. I’m sure west brom
And Watford fans are bored silly with trying to stay up season.
And we have played Barcelona anyway. Ok, so it was behind closed doors at St. George’s as a kick about - but hey that is as good as it gets.
 
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