The Labour Thread

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You can pretty much substitute every term and person in that paragraph with those of the opposition and the argument is no less substantive.

 

[Alty]

Akin to racism

Say what you like about Republicanism but it's born out of a hope for freedom, a unifying cause that did not discriminate. People like Wolfe Tone etc. Unionism is built out of a bedrock of fear and hatred, the colonisers clinging to the past and outright hatred of the Catholic Irish.

This is fantasy stuff. For the most part 'Republicanism' has actually been a particularly unpleasant and violent brand of Irish Nationalism.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

You can pretty much substitute every term and person in that paragraph with those of the opposition and the argument is no less substantive.

Where is the equivalent of the United Irishmen? No, let's not have this the British way, that its equal and both sides are equally to blame. Simply put, the native Irish people were discriminated against for centuries, the Protestant settlers then got a gerrymandered state which actively discriminated against the Irish people native to the land. Unionism as spawned by the likes of horrific bigots like Carson is an awful ideology, spouted by awful people. Of course there are branches of Republicanism which aren't as pleasant and many horrific things have happened in its name but there's no equivalent to the pure fear and hatred of Loyaist nts, truly a scary group of people, equivalent to the Afrikaans in South Africa.

Simply no equivalent of the Shankhill butchers, while the IRA slowly become a morally bankrupt organisation the likes of the UDA were always intent on wholescale slaughter of Catholics without any care of their political affiliation. Now look at the them, racist bully boys who deal drugs, Johnny Adair? The man can barely even speak and he's a hero figure of loyalism, well to those who don't want to kill him. Michael Stone, pure hatred of Catholics is what drives these people.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Probably because NI (or the majority within NI, at least) are seen as greatful for their place in the UK. Whereas Scotland and Wales are seen as whingers. Not an entirely fair characterisation, but you can see where it comes from.

Wales and Scotland should be grateful for being part of the UK and stop whinging? I don't understand that at all.

 

[Alty]

Wales and Scotland should be grateful for being part of the UK and stop whinging? I don't understand that at all.

Well as I said, it's not an altogether fair analysis. But despite the fact England subsidises all three of the other UK nations, there's a tendency in Wales and Scotland in particular to blame Westminster for all their problems. English people see free prescriptions and free university places elsewhere in the UK and feel a bit peeved that the Welsh and the Scots continue to complain about the constitutional settlement.

The problem with a topic like this is you end up talking about "the Scots" as a monolithic entity. But I assume you get my point.

 

[Red]

As it's gone way off topic......

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Does Jeremy Corbyn actually have a chance of becoming leader? From what I've heard, he sounds like the kind of Labour leader that I'd like, but I assume that means he has no chance being elected.

It's an interesting one. He's probably only on the ballot paper because of the PLP's penchant for tokenism and hollow gesture politics. The fact that around a third of his nominations came from people who are now on record saying they won't vote for him suggests that he's mostly there as some kind of socialist window dressing – someone there to give the contest (and, by extension, the party) the appearence of being much more inclusive, pluralistic and ideologically malleable than it really is. Diane Abbott was briefly propped up to play a similar role 5 years ago.

But still… Labour is more than just the PLP. Ed Miliband is perhaps destined to go down as one of Labour's greatest ever chumps, but if he ends up being remembered fondly for anything it should probably be the Collins reforms. Aware that he'd benefitted unfairly from the old electoral college system, he at least had the decency to get rid of it and allow a long overdue change to OMOV. Corbyn has a much better chance under this system. If he really is the favoured candidate among activitists and ordinary party members (a word of caution: the noisier elements on social media can severely skew perceptions), he has a fighting chance.

A Corbyn/Watson duo leading Labour would be good fun, I reckon.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Who is it to be then? Burnham seems to like mentioning his Northern roots a lot - is that really something which needs to be brought up in something as important as this? It shows he lacks credibility. Corbyn is obviously the clown candidate to keep the left side of Labour happy. Yvette is a good public speaker but she seems so insincere, and is also a radical feminist which means she hates 50% of the population.

Liz seems the only credible choice.

 

[Stevencc]

Give us a poll at least, jeez!

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Give us a poll at least, jeez!

Wtf. Don't you have the ability to discuss without having a poll.

 

[Stevencc]

It's a simple way to see an overview of how the forum feels about a topic. It's not like there are so many candidates that it would be difficult to make a poll. Sub-standard thread making imo.

Corbyn anyway.

 

[Gashead]

Corbyn for me, the only one who represents my views anyway. Saying Kendall would be Tory-lite is a huge understatement, so massive no from me.

Unfortunately I'm very underwhelmed by all of the candidates, they should have taken time to come up with some fresh candidates, wait for people to come through etc. Corbyn I'm less underwhelmed by, however his showing on Question Time last night didn't fill me with confidence. Not because his answers were poor (they were excellent actually) but because he takes time to articulate himself and get his point across, which would fly over the head of most of the electorate. Plus the media would be after him more than the others.

Frankly, I expect them to go for one of the boring, sit-on-the-fence candidates like Burnham or Cooper. The future is most certainly not looking very bright...

 

[White Army]

Corbyn would be the only one to make me think about voting labour

 

[Craig]

The Northerner.

 

[Tilbury]

I shall be voting for Corbyn.

 

[Stevencc]

The Northerner.

Yvette Cooper?

 

[Hooped Wizard]

It's a simple way to see an overview of how the forum feels about a topic. It's not like there are so many candidates that it would be difficult to make a poll. Sub-standard thread making imo.

Corbyn anyway.

But we all know that this forum can't be taken seriously seen as the majority of you make David Nellist seem positively Conservative.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Corbyn for me, the only one who represents my views anyway. Saying Kendall would be Tory-lite is a huge understatement, so massive no from me.

Unfortunately I'm very underwhelmed by all of the candidates, they should have taken time to come up with some fresh candidates, wait for people to come through etc. Corbyn I'm less underwhelmed by, however his showing on Question Time last night didn't fill me with confidence. Not because his answers were poor (they were excellent actually) but because he takes time to articulate himself and get his point across, which would fly over the head of most of the electorate. Plus the media would be after him more than the others.

Frankly, I expect them to go for one of the boring, sit-on-the-fence candidates like Burnham or Cooper. The future is most certainly not looking very bright...

So you believe the Labour party would have more people voting for it if Cornyn was leader+

 

[Craig]

When will this thread be merged with the original Labour thread?

 

[Stevencc]

But we all know that this forum can't be taken seriously seen as the majority of you make David Nellist seem positively Conservative.

So you don't trust us with a poll, is what you are saying?

 

[Gashead]

So you believe the Labour party would have more people voting for it if Cornyn was leader+

As I said, based on his QT performance/the media coverage he'd receive, probably not. I think the traditional left-wingers would come back though from Green Party etc. so that could make some difference if we assume people thought Miliband was 'too left wing' as well.

It's a matter of principle vs power for me, this leadership debate. Liz Kendall is a Blairite, no doubt about it, but might get a few more votes from the 'floating voters' because she appeases their inner-Tory. Frankly though, it would be difficult for me supporting somebody with that political leaning. Maybe Burnham/Cooper are the way to go, but for me they have too many ties with previous Labour failures, and these would be focused on in great detail. They also sit on the fence with too many issues, and I don't think either of them have the charisma to win an election either.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

When will this thread be merged with the original Labour thread?

You had your moderation control deleted for a reason Dingle.

 

[JJH]

Merged the two Labour threads due to request.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Oh Craig.

 

[Craig]

Need to show some respect for folk that got in on the subject before you, HP.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

You're at it again.

 

[Alty]

Watched the Andrew Marr show this morning. Word is Liz Kendall is looking like she's in 4th place and Corbyn is attracting more support than people expected - it's not altogether impossible that he'll win.

Tristram Hunt also made some very interesting comments about the LDs. It seemed to be a direct appeal. Don't know whether he's trying to appeal to disaffected members or maybe even suggest some sort of pact, but that could be an intriguing development.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Burning your bonfire are you?

 

[GodsGift]

Harriet Harman gave a very good interview to Andrew Neil this morning (as did Nick Clegg, incidentally). Initially I wasn't sure about her but I think she's performed pretty well as acting leader - bit of a shame she didn't stand as a candidate herself given the lack of genuine competition she would have faced.

 

[Alty]

Burning your bonfire are you?

Sadly not. I shall have to enjoy the whole thing vicariously through social media and telly. I assume you'll be tuning in to the headlights later?

Harriet Harman gave a very good interview to Andrew Neil this morning (as did Nick Clegg, incidentally). Initially I wasn't sure about her but I think she's performed pretty well as acting leader - bit of a shame she didn't stand as a candidate herself given the lack of genuine competition she would have faced.

God no. She's awful.