WWE Raw Discussion Thread

[Dolph Ziggler]

I'm with you here. Ziggler is awesome, but not as awesome as people make out. The next gen Chris Jericho. Very, very good, but not as great as the IWC would have you believe. Always has solid enough matches and capable of a classic (fuck it, I'd actually say he's probably better at bring out classic matches than Jericho) and yes, Ziggler probably deserves more of a history with world titles... but as great as he is in the ring, he's probably in the bottom 10 in the company for his mic work. In fact, since he's been face, I've actually found his mic work to be pretty awful. People shit on Roman Reigns for his promos... I'd still say Roman beats the shit out of Ziggler in that department.



Yeah, Ziggler has a decent amount of great matches under his belt... you've only got one match with Bryan there, but I seem to remember he had a series of matches at about 3 PPV's in a row and they stole the show every time.

But as for your last comment... "when was Cena's last really good match in the WHC picture"... The Rumble? And before that, his matches against Brock Lesnar...

Cena didn't have a really good match there, he was purely dominated by Brock, and Brock was the one who made the matches. At the Rumble, it was all about Rollins and Lesnar. You could have taken Cena out and the match would have still been awesome. IF you removed either of the other two, it wouldn't have been.

 

[Oaf]

Yeah, and people always take that argument. You can look at Cena's back catalog of brilliant matches and every single time people take the "yeah, but it was the other guy that made that match" approach... even with Cena/CM Punk at MitB, where Punk actually botched a fair bit and Cena put in the stronger performance.

If I'm honest, looking back, I can't think of many wrestlers I've seen with an array of superb matches as big as Cenas. You could probably count the people you could compare to him on one hand. You can't happen to be struck by lightning that many times and just happen to keep getting matches against people who just happen to have one of the best performances they're capable of.

It takes two to tango, as they say. Yes, Lesnar vs Cena at Summerslam was a demolition. And I'll agree that the stand outs of the Rumble were Seth and Lesnar. But it's hardly as if Cena didn't play any part in those matches.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I agree completely with Oaf, Ziggler's mic skills are really not up to much, it's not just his voice, but they're fairly repetitive and predictable and when he tries to be funny in front of crowds it falls flat.

I'd also agree Cena puts on good matches, the problem for me is always more that I just do not care about most of them to begin with, the build up to sell the match is normally clichéd and tired and his stale character kills any anticipation (plus his fairly obvious win) so that whilst it may be a decent match I aren't really invested into the story behind it or I know where it's going to go now he's won (nowhere good for his opponent generally).

 

[Oaf]

It often feels like Cena just gets critisism because he's Cena. There are certainly faults there, but it seems like sometimes people just want to shit on everything he does, regardless of what it is.

If I was to try to summarize Cena into "things I dislike about Cena" and "things I like about Cena", I'd go:

Dislike:
1) The way he is used. Forever the top man with very rare occasions of letting somebody get an incredible push out of beating him. And even when they do beat him, it's often very tainted as to look worthless. People often come off looking better in a close fought losing effort to Cena than they do with their tainted victory against him.
2) Yes, he can be a bit sloppy in the ring at times. Not as poor as people say, though.
3) One thing that always massively bugs me, he's pretty poor at making wrestling look... "real", I guess. It's hard to explain. Basically, there are a lot of times where he'll be outside of the ring getting counted out... it'll get to 8, he'll seem dead. It'll get to 9, he'll be miraculously revitalized and dash into the ring. And then he's dead again. Cena is bad at that.
4) I guess it'd be great to see him getting a reaction he's supposed to get. It's always a bit awkward to have such a "good guy" getting so many boo's. Perhaps make him a heel... but then I guess the smarks would just start cheering for him.

That's probably about it. When people moan about those things, I don't argue against them, because they're all valid points.

Like:
1) His mic work. People seem to shit on him half the time for it, but he's about as good a speaker as there has ever been. He never even seems to fucking stumble as he's talking. So many times I've seen him go out to a crowd who start off booing him... but by the end of his speaking, he's actually getting a lot more cheers as he's winning people over by working magic on the microphone.
2) His record in great matches. Yes, Cena always seems to get the main events and what not, but shitting hell, with his record, why the hell not? He's rarely involved in a disappointing match. Ok, yeah, you can get a match like Rock vs Cena matches that may not live up to the (outrageous amount of) hype, but those matches are still very good by most standards. As I said, I'm not sure there is anybody with such a long list of classics.
3) The hardwork side of things. He clearly loves what he does, and everybody seems to at least be able to agree that he's pretty much as hard a worker as there has ever been in the businessmen. He does a lot of great stuff out of the ring as well, of course. To be honest, he does just seem like an all round nice guy, which I'm always a fan of. It's like, the one thing The Big Show has going for him that stops me hating him completely.

These are the things that get me. Whenever I see people talk about Cena as if he's shite with a microphone, or has shit matches (to be fair, I never see complaints about point number 3) I just tend to write them off as the internet just doing what the internet does and desperately looking to try to villianise the man because it's what everybody does.

 

[TheMinsterman]

His mic work is... well, when people slate it they're doing so more based off the content I think than the delivery itself, Cena has cut a LOT of cringe worthy promos which are brilliant for the kids they're aimed at, sure, but as adults they can insult out intelligence a little. In terms of delivery, he's great, he does know how to pace a promo and a lot of the other technical nuances, his anchor is the content and that is all down to his character, if he wasn't this stale goodie two shoes, he could no doubt deliver promos more palatable to the type of audience who will "go online" and talk about it.

One of his biggest issues in terms of how they use him isn't that he wins a lot, it's how he does it and who he is booked to do it too, he constantly flattens guys way too prematurely into their careers and seriously hinders their progress, not entirely his fault it's whoevers booking that but feeding him guys like Wyatt etc so early did them no favours when they inevitably lost, they need to find ways to build guys without chucking them at Cena who they aren't willing to have lay down often.

 

[RavenBish]

Cena's mic work is great when he wants it to be, problem is he's put in the same angles constantly so cuts the same promos constantly. There's no doubt though that you could make him heel tomorrow and he'd pull it off comfortably, he knows how to work individual crowds and to his credit is one of the few people in the company who ad-libs and works on the fly without it being obvious - I'm guessing but I'd say his are probably less scripted than everyone else's.

 

[Eamonn]

Heard Lesnar is scheduled for tonight, looking forward to a Bryan/Lesnar confrontation, hopefully all 3 of them in the same ring. I'd have Reigns and Bryan vs Rollins, Kane and Big Show, have descension between Bryan and Reigns, but they come together when Authority get themselves DQ'd and come at them with chairs, Bryan and Reigns fight them off successfully. Face to face confrontation, suddenly Lesnars music hits, a 3 way confrontation, both point at the Mania sign and Brock goes for Bryan and Reigns, they work together, bam superman punch, bam running knee, bam SPEAR. Bryan and Reigns leave, looks like the show is about to end when we see Rollins get back up from outside, rolls in the ring, Lesnar is struggling to get up, Rollins hits the curb stomp and desperately calls for a ref as hes cashing in, Rollins has his back turned calling for a ref, he turns around...and RKO OUTTA NOWHERE. Orton lays out Rollins to end the show. BOOK IT.

 

[Oaf]

That's some good Eamonn bookin' right there. Leads nicely into Seth vs Orton at WM, too, which I reckon could steal the show.

All signs seem to be pointing toward a change in decision from WWE recently... whereas before it was thought that they didn't want to just cave in and throw Bryan into the main event of WM again for the second year running, apparently they've now had a lot of meetings and they've decided that they will go down that route again.

How about we just skip all the aggro next year WWE and let Bryan win the fuckin' thing outright? Or give it to someone like Seth or Ambrose or somebody that people want to see succeed.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I dunno. I haven't been following too closely recently, but my reading of recent developments is they still want Lesnar Vs Reigns at WM but think (naively, in my view) that the crowd will be more accepting of the latter if he goes through Bryan in a top quality match beforehand. Also, they need something for Reigns to do during the WM build, especially with Lesnar only working limited dates.

Still think the best way out of this predicament is Reigns turning heel and eventually aligning with Heyman.

Also, if you'll forgive the tangent, I can't say I'm too keen on the idea of Bray Vs Taker. Would have worked perfectly if they'd done it last year, or if they hadn't broken the streak at WM30. Now? I don't really see an upside. Bray should go over but it won't have the same dramatic impact it would have had 12 months ago. And if this is all about Taker restoring some pride, this WM build is basically a repeat of last year's – i.e. Bray being built up as a really charismatic and impressive heel and then jobbing to an established star (who doesn't need the win) on the big show.

It doesn't really appeal from an in-ring perspective, either. Bray is unusually fast and agile for a bloke his size, but Taker really needs an opponent in that Shawn Michaels mould if he's going to have another great match. On the current roster, you're looking at Bryan or Rollins. Maybe, at a stretch, Ziggler. Not sure how you get to any of those storyline wise, though. Kinda sad to say, but I think I'd prefer Taker to sit it out this year.

 

[Oaf]

Honestly, I'd probably also want him to sit out this year if it wasn't the year I'm actually going... I'd feel pretty annoyed if the one year I actually go is the one year he skips it! Seeing an Undertaker entrance live at Wrestlemania is probably the number one thing I want to see in all of wrestling.

I think the Bray feud will probably be great to watch leading into WM. Wyatt seems to have a decent angle on it (I'm the new face of fear, ect) and he can sure give some cool promo's at times (plus Taker is obviously... well, Taker, so he's going to be awesome to watch regardless). But yeah, it does seem like the wrong time now that the streak is gone, and the wrong opponent in terms of actually getting a good match out of Taker. Though there are positive spins to maybe be put on it...

Regarding the streak, before last year leading into an Undertaker match, you never really feel like Taker may lose. Even last year. Hell, last year was about the most "obvious" win Taker was going to get in a good 4 or 5 years for me if I'm honest! This year, you'd probably even put Bray as the favourite simply because it makes sense to give him a push like that. But... are they really going to want to do that to Takers streak? Give him a pretty ugly looking 21-2 record, after it was all going so well? Perhaps they'll want to let Taker "redeem" himself somewhat (though if they wanted to do that, surely he'd need to beat Lesnar?). Still, that rub Bray would get. Lesnar beats Taker; look at where he is now. If they back Bray Wyatt... he could be in a similar position this time next year. So, for once, I don't think the winner is anywhere near as obvious as it usually is.

And regarding the match itself... yeah, Bray isn't a Bryan/Seth who would probably get a great match out of Taker in terms of athleticism and what not... but Bray can tell a story in a match. Last year, I thought Cena/Wyatt was the best match at the show and it wasn't for the actual "wrestling", it was for the story being told in the match. And obviously, Taker is a master at that. I can still see a possibility where they'll put on an entertaining match, even if it's not the most technically sound.

Or it may just completely suck. We'll have to wait and see...

 

[Dolph Ziggler]

There was a board meeting 2 weeks ago, where Vince has changed the ME for 'Mania to include DB in a triple threat. Looking forward to seeing it set up, but worried Reigns is going over both clean at 'Mania.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

Hopefully if Reigns does win as booked, Rollins will cash in as soon as its over

 

[mase]

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

There was a board meeting 2 weeks ago, where Vince has changed the ME for 'Mania to include DB in a triple threat. Looking forward to seeing it set up, but worried Reigns is going over both clean at 'Mania.

honestly i'd prefer it if Lesnar won at Mania. that's the result i think nobody at all is predicting. i hope he's already signed a year contract extension and that he holds onto the belt for the best part of 2015. lesnar is absolutely gold, and i don't think they should let him go without a quick face run against the Authority.

 

[Pilgrim Meister]

honestly i'd prefer it if Lesnar won at Mania. that's the result i think nobody at all is predicting. i hope he's already signed a year contract extension and that he holds onto the belt for the best part of 2015. lesnar is absolutely gold, and i don't think they should let him go without a quick face run against the Authority.

Or as above, but Rollins cashes in once Lesnar retains and wins

 

[Relentless]

Rollins might get de-pushed cos of his nudes on the net everyone reckons

 

[Who Needs Mourinho]

Rollins might get de-pushed cos of his nudes on the net everyone reckons

Before PG they would make an angle out of it now. I'd like to think he will get a telling off and nothing more.300 days away from home a year, I bet most of the roster have pics like this saved on gf's/bf's phones that could possibly get out.

 

[Saddlerrad]

Enjoyed the Sting/HHH promo segment, looking forward to seeing what may or may not happen at Fast Lane. Wonder if Taker may interrupt the promo...

 

[ForeverUnited]

Hope Rollins doesn't get de-pushed.

 

[Libertine]

Thought Reigns did well this week.

 

[Saddlerrad]

Hope Rollins doesn't get de-pushed.

If they really are 'best for business' then that would be the exact opposite as to what they should be doing.

Thought Reigns did well this week.

I think the crowds have been softer in the aftermath of the RR than they were/would have been on Batista. Bryan/Reigns is going to a no contest because of the Authority/Lesnar to set a triple threat up at WM anyway.

 

[Eamonn]

Thought they were going with my booking for a second, disappointed at no Orton or even Lesnar at the end, bit of a waste of a rare Lesnar appearance. Reigns did well tonight, that is if he was supposed to be acting heelish which he was all night and to be honest this is a Reigns I enjoy watching, heel Reigns is the way to go align him with Heyman at Mania. A few bright spots throughout the show but lack of creativity is hurting the show still, Usos/Cesaro/Kidd, Axel/Ambrose/Barrett, Bellas/Paige, Wyatt/Ziggler, pretty much absolutely identical to last weeks Raw but I am sure it will all pick up after Fast Lane. Oh and Rusev was awesome!!

 

[Eamonn]

And after Bryans comment, I just had to relive the Katie Vick incident again, holy fuckI did not remember it being that bad, first time I've watched that in full in many years, how did HHH agree to do that, it was hilarious and disturbing but absolutely brilliant to watch now, crazy storyline.

 

[RavenBish]

Reigns and Heyman going heel on Lesnar would be cool. Something about Lesnar getting old and leaving and Heyman merely protecting his own interests and future.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

i don't know. the idea of heyman and reigns together works because reigns desperately needs someone like a heyman.

but lesnar and heyman not being together? hmmmmmmm that would take some getting used to

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

How about WWE for once in 12 years create a good heel rather than having to rely on others for the voice because their heels are always incredibly bland or awful.

its not that bloody hard, TNA can do it with poorer wrestlers, less creativity, no money and no crowd to react.............why cannot WWE get this simple thing right.

I cannot think of a good strong heel WWE has had since that HHH/Angle/Edge & Christian era.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

i think Seth Rollins is the best heel in the WWE right now by a long, long distance. I think his mic work just needs a bit of a tweak and he will be awesome for years to come.

The problem is that heels now act un-heel-like and that garners cheers from the crowd. they then turn face and lose all the stuff that the crowd began to like about them to turn into a generic WWE babyface.

I give someone like MVP credit in TNA because he's got good mic skills and not 1 bit of that Impact crowd seem to like him, which is the main point. However they then have to book him with a 'gang', which is the oldest TNA schtick going. Especially a gang as terribly named as 'THE BEAT DOWN CREW'

 

[Dolph Ziggler]

It seems the rumours are true that Seth Rollins works stiff.

 

[NiallQuinnDiscoPants]

It seems the rumours are true that Seth Rollins works stiff.

why are you not on Vince's creative team with comedy like that!

 

[RavenBish]

Feel sorry for my boy Seth. Clearly he was playing away with that fiiiiine tattooed lady but it's hardly like that's uncommon in the biznis - as for the nakey titty photo, he clearly didn't post that with the timing and his ex is a biatch for tweeting the dick pics.