Arsenal fans start petition against Mike Dean

[Veggie Legs]

I'd be curious to hear why you don't think it would - beyond the humanitarian debate.

What would it achieve, apart from putting more pressure on referees? I find it hard to believe that they don't already do the job to the best of their ability. Plus, what Bilo said.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I'd be curious to hear why you don't think it would - beyond the humanitarian debate.

Do you think referees are somehow not trying hard enough, don't take their job seriously or don't care when they make a poor decision? Do you think referees are complacent in the way they handle situations?

An acquaintance of mine referees low down in the pyramid and he's very competitive regarding his role, he wants to be the best official he can possibly be. I imagine the dedication and professionalism of referees is excellent at the very highest level.

 

[Whitechapel]

All the refs have been poor this season to be honest, maybe it just needs looking into in general rather than singling out a specific ref. Mike Dean will no doubt have looked back at that game thoroughly checking the points that he got wrong. Hopefully he'll go into his next game a little wiser.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I think that's a very important point, the way the media (especially TV) focus entirely on refereeing decisions drives me mad and does nothing but undermine the officials. It doesn't surprise me that fans want a scapegoat to blame things on but professional pundits should be able to do better.

Match of the Day often analyse refereeing decisions, in fact they probably analyse refereeing decisions more than they do good play. Why they employ ex-footballers rather than ex-referees to do the analysis, I've no idea.

Slagging off referees has become part of the circus of the Premier League. Video replays will just make it worse, as you can see fans don't even agree on decisions after video replays - you'll still get people claiming Hurst's 'goal' in 66 crossed the line.

 

[merseyboyred]

Every season we hear that referees have been worse than ever. I don't think it's refs getting worse (in fact they've clearly improved from years gone by), but that their decisions are looked at with ever increasing scrutiny (as mnb and others indicate above), in slow motion and completely removed of any context. They're then judged by individual subjective standards. None will ever be good enough under these circumstances.

 

[Whitechapel]

How wins/draws have Liverpool been gifted by dodgy offside decisions this season?

 

[merseyboyred]

And?! How many have been in the past?

That's not the ref either.

 

[Whitechapel]

And?! How many have been in the past?

That's not the ref either.

Not having a dig, just seems that it might be why Liverpool fans are so quick to defend referees when all the calls go in their favour.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

No problem with Costa's retrospective ban but absolutely farcical that Gabriel's red has been rescinded. Genuinely do think the FA make things up as they go along.

 

[merseyboyred]

Not having a dig, just seems that it might be why Liverpool fans are so quick to defend referees when all the calls go in their favour.

Yes, that's definitely it of course.

 

[Christian Slater]

The media are highlighting mistakes with more vigor, particularly Sky. They know if video replays were to be introduced it'd be their cameras that'd be used.

 

[thespus]

Do you think referees are somehow not trying hard enough, don't take their job seriously or don't care when they make a poor decision? Do you think referees are complacent in the way they handle situations?

An acquaintance of mine referees low down in the pyramid and he's very competitive regarding his role, he wants to be the best official he can possibly be. I imagine the dedication and professionalism of referees is excellent at the very highest level.

I do believe complacency exists throughout most industries once an individual has reached the summit of that profession. Do you believe that malpractive lawsuits should be done away with? Because I know plenty of physicians who are very competitive and dedicate themselves to being the best doctor they can be - they all are required to carry malpractice insurance.

The bottom anecdote helps demonstrate the willingness of aspiring top flight officials - I think accountability at the highest level ensures a lack of complacency among those who reach the summit. I didn't think that it would raise such ire (or that it would be used to blanket my opinion on worker's rights). The concept that Premier League officials are "mistreated" workers is bizarre to me - I wonder if Howard Webb was "mistreated" in the eyes of Liverpool fans during the SAF era. It's far removed from the reality of actual mistreatment.

Would anyone be opposed to the introduction of video technology on the sideline? I agree with Anaconda that these petitions and calls for the game to be replayed are embarrassing (Blue_Bee: see Chelsea fans after the CL loss to Barcelona), but for all the talk in this thread about how we need to support referees, I haven't seen a suggestion how. Re: motivation by reward - how do you further reward someone that makes a posh income doing the job to which he/she aspired?

 

[Bilo]

Not having a dig, just seems that it might be why Liverpool fans are so quick to defend referees when all the calls go in their favour.

This is literally getting embarrassing now.

The bottom anecdote helps demonstrate the willingness of aspiring top flight officials - I think accountability at the highest level ensures a lack of complacency among those who reach the summit. I didn't think that would raise such ire (or that it would be used to blanket my opinion on worker's rights). The concept that Premier League officials are "mistreated" workers still makes me chuckle - I wonder if Howard Webb was "mistreated" in the eyes of Liverpool fans during the SAF era. It's so far removed from the reality of actual mistreatment it's almost disrespectful.

Would anyone be opposed to the introduction of video technology on the sideline? I agree with Anaconda that these petitions and calls for the game to be replayed are embarrassing (Blue_Bee: see Chelsea fans after the CL loss to Barcelona), but for all the talk in this thread about how we need to "support referees", I haven't seen a suggestion how. Re: motivation by reward - how do you further reward someone that makes a posh income doing the job to which he/she aspired?

Working environment has nothing to do with the wage, or the willingness to do the job to begin with. It has been pointed out to you, several times, but you seem to forget.

Funny you should mention the Chelsea fans after that CL loss in 2009, because that ref had to be escorted out of London in secrecy for his own safety. You're mixing apples with oranges when you say that their quite decent wage justifies their working environment, because they don't have anything to do with eachother. Motivationally, they do, but in regards to whether or not it's an environment worth bettering, they're completely unrelated.

 

[Whitechapel]

*Sigh* Bilo's back complaining that nobody posts the way he wants them to. Get in line folks, backs straight.

 

[thespus]

Working environment has nothing to do with the wage

This is a naive view of economics. Every trade union and employer discuss concerns about work environment when negotiating/determining compensation. The concept of supply and demand is directly related to job stress/working environment.

, or the willingness to do the job to begin with. It has been pointed out to you, several times, but you seem to forget.

Perhaps if you didn't stalk anyone whom has different opinions and avoided ad hominem, you'd get a better discussion. You know, maybe don't harass people in a debate where you are trying to prove that referees are harassed far too often.

 

[Bilo]

This is a naive view of economics. Every trade union and employer discuss concerns about work environment when negotiating/determining compensation. The concept of supply and demand is directly related to job stress/working environment.



Perhaps if you didn't stalk anyone whom has different opinions and avoided ad hominem, you'd get a better discussion. You know, maybe don't harass people in a debate where you are trying to prove that referees are harassed far too often.

Stalking you? Harassing you? Have you completely lost the plot?

As for your first paragraph, it's downright incorrect, but I'd rather we focused on how you think I stalk and harass you. Go on.

 

[merseyboyred]

*Sigh* Bilo's back complaining that nobody posts the way he wants them to. Get in line folks, backs straight.

Maybe you could try not posting bollocks?

 

[Mustard]

But seriously guys, I still think it's unbelievable that Ramsey's goal was called offside. Thoughts?

 

[Whitechapel]

Maybe you could try not posting bollocks?

I'm not at all, completely valid point. If you'd have had those favourable decisions go against you this season you'd be on the other side of the fence, not gargling Mike Dean's balls along with Bilo.

 

[merseyboyred]

I'm not at all, completely valid point. If you'd have had those favourable decisions go against you this season you'd be on the other side of the fence, not gargling Mike Dean's balls along with Bilo.

Why would I be annoyed if decisions had been correctly ruled out? I'd have nothing to complain about. You're not doing well here.

I wish you Arsenal fans would stop stealing our stereotypes.

 

[thespus]

Stalking you? Harassing you? Have you completely lost the plot?

As for your first paragraph, it's downright incorrect, but I'd rather we focused on how you think I stalk and harass you. Go on.

There are numerous examples in this thread of you focusing on the other person rather than the subject - see your very first response to me re: Dean. The post above demonstrates it quite well, too. When I stopped responding to you, you posted an @ me. If you want to focus on a squabble between the two of us, PM me.

Now, if you want to have an actual discussion, would you mind explaining how the quote below is "downright incorrect"?

This is a naive view of economics. Every trade union and employer discuss concerns about work environment when negotiating/determining compensation. The concept of supply and demand is directly related to job stress/working environment.

 

[Bilo]

There are numerous examples in this thread of you focusing on the other person rather than the subject - see your very first response to me re: Dean. The post above demonstrates it quite well, too. When I stopped responding to you, you posted an @ me. If you want to focus on a squabble between the two of us, PM me.

Now, if you want to have an actual discussion, would you mind explaining how the quote below is "downright incorrect"?

And you call that harassing and, ehrm, stalking? On a forum, where you're one click away from ignoring me? In a thread that I started, where you're one of the few to disagree with the notion that the ref's working environment is one that could be improved?

Jesus christ, that's rich. I was joking about you and Whitechapel feeling violated earlier, now I get why didn't pick up on it. You really do feel violated.

As for why that quote is downright incorrect, I'll explain it in two sentences: most of the problematic working environment is down to the fans, and to the media. They have nothing to do with how much the referees earn, and their effect can therefore not be affected by the referee's salary.

 

[Christian Slater]

It's not been long since refs were given the job full time, as a legitimate profession. It could be said they've rightly come under more scrutiny since then, we're seeing blunder refs being demoted far more frequently. The pressure of a full time job they rely on being under scrutiny by millions of people that have emotional investment and a means to see things the ref can't must be immense.

 

[thespus]

As for why that quote is downright incorrect, I'll explain it in two sentences: most of the problematic working environment is down to the fans, and to the media. They have nothing to do with how much the referees earn, and their effect can therefore not be affected by the referee's salary.

"and their effect can therefore not be affected by the referee's salary." ...?

Why do you suppose the market salary (and per game bonus) is exponentially higher for Premier League referees than Football League referees? It's still officiating a football match - the rules don't change from the Championship to the Premier League. The free market dictates that referees at the top level get paid more because they are under more pressure and are theoretically the most talented officials - the prominence of the Premier League, which includes global media and larger fan bases, is of course factored into the significant rise in compensation. Have you studied economics? Premier League refs get a contracted salary plus a fee for each game they work - if the official has a poor performance, docking half the game fee or dropping him for a weekend does not seem unreasonable to me.


Video technology is the way to go, mind.

 

[JimJams]

You can certainly drop them, but you surely can't dock them. Ah well you've done the job we asked you to do mate, but we're only paying you 40% because frankly we weren't as pleased with it as we expected to be.

 

[thespus]

You can certainly drop them, but you surely can't dock them. Ah well you've done the job we asked you to do mate, but we're only paying you 40% because frankly we weren't as pleased with it as we expected to be.

I agree dropping is a better solution. I would not advocate docking salary, only the additional per game quota. Hypothetically, wouldn't the official prefer taking a deduction to missing out on a £1k match bonus the following week?

Contracts for a multitude of positions include performance stipulations. I use statistics to help hospitals estimate revenues, budget salaries, and construct clinical trials - if I provide flawed data for a project, I don't receive my performance bonus. If I have multiple issues, they'll likely sack me. This is just one anecdote, but a wide variety of careers offer salary + performance bonuses (reward motivation).

 

[Veggie Legs]

Yes, lots of careers offer bonuses for good performance. Do any offer financial penalties for poor performance?
I feel like we've come full circle here, back to reward/sanction as a motivator.

 

[thespus]

Yes, lots of careers offer bonuses for good performance. Do any offer financial penalties for poor performance?
I feel like we've come full circle here, back to reward/sanction as a motivator.

It's a matter of how you perceive the per game game stipulation - if it's a reward, it isn't a financial penalty if you don't receive the full allotment. Nowhere have I argued against reward motivation or advocated motivation by fear - those were straw-mans from my original hypothesis. Reward motivation has a correlated risk (not attaining the reward via poor performance) - which is what I want. I shouldn't have used the term "fine" - but I am too thick to know a better term for "not being rewarded a performance bonus".

If we absolve Premier League referees from accountability or performance motivation, what do we do to try and improve the standard of officiating? I find it an interesting discussion relative to the same three or four narratives that have become commonplace.

 

[Veggie Legs]

It's a matter of how you perceive the per game game stipulation - if it's a reward, it isn't a financial penalty if you don't receive the full allotment. Nowhere have I argued against reward motivation or advocated motivation by fear - those were straw-mans from my original hypothesis. Reward motivation has a correlated risk (not attaining the reward via poor performance) - which is what I want. I shouldn't have used the term "fine" - but I am too thick to know a better term for "not being rewarded a performance bonus".

If we absolve Premier League referees from accountability or performance motivation, what do we do to try and improve the standard of officiating? I find it an interesting discussion relative to the same three or four narratives that have become commonplace.

I see what you mean about it just not being a reward, but I wouldn't think of it in those terms (but maybe that's just semantics).

What do we do to improve the standard of officiating? I have no idea. I'm pretty confident that the FA (or whoever) are good at selecting the best referees for the highest profile leagues/matches and I think that those individuals do the job to the best of their abilities. They've got experience of taking charge of hundreds of matches at all levels of the game and as far as I know they spend time analysing their performance. So I think what we need to do is either have realistic expectations of what a referee can do (i.e. accept that they're going to make mistakes) or fundamentally change the nature of officiating in football - neither of those things seems likely to happen any time soon.

 

[johnnytodd]

Liverpool are renowned for getting dodgy decisions in their favour, penalties and complete rule changes.......special dispensation and all that.

Everybody knows that........