Hillsborough victims unlawfully killed

Pagnell

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Ninety-six football fans who died as a result of a crush in the Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed, the inquests have concluded.

Police failures led to the deaths in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

Jurors answered yes to the question about whether any police error caused or contributed to a dangerous situation at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final.

The behaviour of Liverpool fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation at the turnstiles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36138337

No surprise at all.
 

Stevencc

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How long until Johnny turns up?
 

mowgli

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Shame Thatcher isn't around to be asked about her calling Liverpool fans "Animals" Come to think of it maybe not :smug: Very pleased that the families of the 96 have been proved right and now maybe they will get justice and the police who lied in their notebooks and later their statements are brought to trial.
 

AFCB_Mark

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"Was there any behavior on the part of football supporters which contributed to the dangerous situation at the turnstiles" NO.

This is the one bit I can't get my head around.

The main focus absolutely rightly has been on:
The seemingly establishment led distortion, even cover up, of events and facts. Which surely warrants further looking into, be it by the IPCC or the CPS.
The frightening misleading of multiple investigations, by the very Police themselves no less.
Not to mention the particularly horrendous reporting from one particular media outlet.

And it seems very logical that the errors of judgement and communication, the level of incompetence from those stewarding and policing the game, together with the state of repair (or lack of) of Hillsborough at that time - should all lead to the unlawful deaths verdict.

The clear establishing of the facts finally is a relief, and I daresay there's various people in positions of power at that time who are feeling rather bloody uneasy right now.

But I just find that particular line slightly troubling, just based purely on my own experiences.

I've been involved in a few hairy but minor crushes in my time, most notably at Exeter some years back, nobody seriously hurt in any of them thankfully. In each there's always been various factors involved, always poor stewarding and old decrepit stands not fit for the purpose, but in every single one - my own fellow fans have been behaving like idiots as well, showing a lack of common sense or consideration for others.

Perhaps I need to dig further into the findings and get my head around the specifics of why they came to that conclusion on that particular point.
 

The Jovial Forester

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"Was there any behavior on the part of football supporters which contributed to the dangerous situation at the turnstiles" NO.

This is the one bit I can't get my head around.

The main focus absolutely rightly has been on:
The seemingly establishment led distortion, even cover up, of events and facts. Which surely warrants further looking into, be it by the IPCC or the CPS.
The frightening misleading of multiple investigations, by the very Police themselves no less.
Not to mention the particularly horrendous reporting from one particular media outlet.

And it seems very logical that the errors of judgement and communication, the level of incompetence from those stewarding and policing the game, together with the state of repair (or lack of) of Hillsborough at that time - should all lead to the unlawful deaths verdict.

The clear establishing of the facts finally is a relief, and I daresay there's various people in positions of power at that time who are feeling rather bloody uneasy right now.

But I just find that particular line slightly troubling, just based purely on my own experiences.

I've been involved in a few hairy but minor crushes in my time, most notably at Exeter some years back, nobody seriously hurt in any of them thankfully. In each there's always been various factors involved, always poor stewarding and old decrepit stands not fit for the purpose, but in every single one - my own fellow fans have been behaving like idiots as well, showing a lack of common sense or consideration for others.

Perhaps I need to dig further into the findings and get my head around the specifics of why they came to that conclusion on that particular point.
Do read up if you have the time, the inquest heard from witnesses that there was no drunkenness or misbehabiour nor any police attempts to control the press of fans, which will I presume be why the jury found as it did.
 

Bobbin'

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Do read up if you have the time, the inquest heard from witnesses that there was no drunkenness or misbehabiour nor any police attempts to control the press of fans, which will I presume be why the jury found as it did.

So the ticketless fans that showed up and forced their way through turnstiles and over walls are completely blameless.

I don't argue with any of the other findings and of course am very pleased for the families of the victims but that particular verdict is nonsense in my view, those who showed up without tickets and forced their way into the ground did contribute and regardless of what a jury says, will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
 

The Jovial Forester

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merseyboyred

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27 years. Finally.

71 of the 96 who lost their lives were aged between 10 & 27. This has taken a literal lifetime to fully acknowledge the truth. Those responsible for the disaster, the cover-up and the lies must face justice for their actions.

So the ticketless fans that showed up and forced their way through turnstiles and over walls are completely blameless.

I don't argue with any of the other findings and of course am very pleased for the families of the victims but that particular verdict is nonsense in my view, those who showed up without tickets and forced their way into the ground did contribute and regardless of what a jury says, will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

Of course it's nonsense in your view, your view obviously being totally aware of the facts presented in a two year inquest and runs contrary to the established facts that were reported in the Taylor enquiry originally and of crowd dynamics, and not at all having been influenced by a narrative created by SYP and one that continues to stain the perception of those fans and of people nowadays. Which is exposed in the inquest evidence that was presented throughout those two years & the findings, but y'know.

If you wish to argue against those findings you are arguing with repeatedly established FACT. It might be nonsense in your view, but your opinion is factually complete nonsense.

David Conn's thorough piece covers most everything.http://www.theguardian.com/football...stakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=fb_gu
 

silkyman

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As you said above, there would almost certainly have been some ticketless fans. And there would probably have been some drunk ones. And probably some who were acting like dicks.

Just as there would have been in the Forest end. And at every football match in the country which was kicking off at the same time. And kicked off before, or since. Because that's what football was like then, and still is!

It was nothing out of the ordinary and further emphasises the lack of fitness for purpose of the stadium and the terrible preparation and training of the police that they couldn't deal with stuff that should have been par for the course.

It gave the authorities a nice hiding place so they made sure it became 'the story'.
 

CEngelbrecht

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Everyone interested in football have known this for a generation. So the bobbies misunderstood the crap on the day and responded incorrectly and people died by the scores. That is a shitty day at the office. It can happen. But then you take the heat, you don't start covering it up, fabricating hooligan riots and bullshit. Then you only make it worse for yourself. Then you're no different than the criminals you seek to lock up.
 

Lamby

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The fellow fans did it, not the police!
 

Pagnell

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As you said above, there would almost certainly have been some ticketless fans. And there would probably have been some drunk ones. And probably some who were acting like dicks.

Just as there would have been in the Forest end. And at every football match in the country which was kicking off at the same time. And kicked off before, or since. Because that's what football was like then, and still is!

It was nothing out of the ordinary and further emphasises the lack of fitness for purpose of the stadium and the terrible preparation and training of the police that they couldn't deal with stuff that should have been par for the course.

It gave the authorities a nice hiding place so they made sure it became 'the story'.
Did you mean to quote me?
 

silkyman

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The bit about people still buying into the whole 'fans fault' lie.

So what if some, even a tiny minority, of Liverpool fans WERE a bit the worse for wear and a little rowdy. They were football fans going to an FA Cup semi. The police should protect and control. Not funnel the problem inside where it was always going to be worse.
 

chriss cooper

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It is quite clear the Police made huge mistakes & tried to cover this up over many years .. But to say that The Liverpool fans, or at least some of them were not in part to blame is ridiculous.
I wonder how many of the Jury (6 women 3 men) have ever been to a football match, let alone in the late Eighties, when i started to go to some 1st div matches, so i do speak with a certain amount of experience.
The Matches could & quiet often were threatening, fights both before & after, you could find trouble easily if you looked for it . The mentality of many (not all) fans was very different to that of today .
These are the same fans who caused the Heysal tragedy just 4 years earlier, uk teams were out of all European competition .

As i say, there were many other contributing factors at Hillsborough that terrible day, but to lay ALL the blame on the Police & even the Ambulance service is a complete joke .. Can you imagine the same outcome at Hillsborough, had the fans all been pensioners ??
angry.gif
 

Pagnell

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The bit about people still buying into the whole 'fans fault' lie.

So what if some, even a tiny minority, of Liverpool fans WERE a bit the worse for wear and a little rowdy. They were football fans going to an FA Cup semi. The police should protect and control. Not funnel the problem inside where it was always going to be worse.

Indeed.
 
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ValiantRob

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So the ticketless fans that showed up and forced their way through turnstiles and over walls are completely blameless.

I don't argue with any of the other findings and of course am very pleased for the families of the victims but that particular verdict is nonsense in my view, those who showed up without tickets and forced their way into the ground did contribute and regardless of what a jury says, will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
The jury heard that there was only the amount of people in that end as tickets sold, and there was no need to force yourself into a ground when the incompetent police chief ordered the opening of the gates. Nobody coukd say if there was ticketless fans in the ground as tickets weren`t checked because of the shambles of the police organisation.
 

silkyman

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The Sun's take....

Cg_63rNWIAARiE9
The
 

Super_horns

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The shame is that the police did cover up their role in this for so long rather than being honest...

There may have been drunk fans trying to get in without tickets but that shouldn't excuse the lack of organisation and medical help at the time.

Or the failings of those in charge to accept some kind of responsibility for what happened .

96 innocent fans died that day and their families had to suffer for 27 years with no accountability for their loss.
.
 
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jacobncfc

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Perhaps I need to dig further into the findings and get my head around the specifics of why they came to that conclusion on that particular point.

The suggestion, I suppose, is that the same thing would've happened if every supporter was stone cold sober and no one without a ticket travelled, which seems reasonable enough to me.

Clearly any big game, then and still now to some degree, will attract a significant number of fans who've had a few drinks and some without tickets hoping to blag one or find a way in. That the hundreds of other matches managed to pass by without people being crushed to death would suggest there was something else to blame.
 

GodsGift

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The Sun's take....

Cg_63rNWIAARiE9
The
Not a surprise. The biggest surprise for me is The Times (also Murdoch owned) not mentioning it on their front page either. Their Scouse sports journo Tony Barrett will be livid.
 

JJ1532

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Sad thing is, the disaster could so easily have been avoided. It wasn't the opening of the gates(and it certainly wasn't the actions of the fans) that killled those people, it was the lack of stewarding between the turnstiles and the central tunnels. If there had been adequate numbers of stewards and police directing fans into the side pens, then they could have spared those people.

Duckenfield needs to have his useless, lying arse dragged into court on manslaughter charges. Those police and officials that lied and covered the whole thing up need charging with whatever offences fit as well. Its a fucking disgrace that Duckenfield still walks free today.
 
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CEngelbrecht

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As i say, there were many other contributing factors at Hillsborough that terrible day, but to lay ALL the blame on the Police & even the Ambulance service is a complete joke

That's not the key controversy about the Hillsborough disaster. Not why the world still talks about it, shaking their heads when they do. The controversy is the cover up by those very authorities we should all be able to trust for honesty after such a horror.
It's not about the blame on the actual day. It's about the blame for the days and even years that followed. That is the disgrace here.
You English had those three football related disasters in the 1980s the football world still talks about. With Heysel in '85, to the world the bad guys were the hooligans. With the Bradford fire same year, the bad guy was gruesome misfortune. The bad guy from Hillsborough in '89 ... is the authorities. Because they lied to flee their responsibility afterwards.
Try to imagine that this had happened in, say, Spain, or Italy. What would you be saying about it down at the pub? You wouldn't be talking about the errors made on the actual day, would you?
 

StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy

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The cover up is is indefensible.

My heart does go out to the 96 who died, they were there nice and early and simply looking forward to an FA cup Semi final. Heartbreaking.

I've been thinking about it the over the last day and no one can defend SYP in their actions after the disaster but I do have a degree of sympathy for those involved, Duckenfield didn't wake up that morning and decide he want to to cause the deaths of nearly 100 Liverpool fans. Given their 'previous' with Heysel, I'd imagine there was sheer panic amongst those in charge that day which led them to make ridiculous decisions, when stacks of Liverpool fans were trying to force themselves in.

That leads me on to my next point, it doesn't sit right with me at all that Liverpool fans are totally blameless and infact is just as disgusting as what it'd have been if SYP didn't get any of the blame. It's simply really if the Liverpool fans had queued in an orderly fashion, this simply wouldn't have happened, those ticketless and worried about being late caused the pandemonium and then from then on in obviously SYP's actions are to blame. If you carry on with a blinkered (now official) view that Liverpool fans can't be blamed whatsoever, just ask yourself this, (knowing of Liverpool fans at the time) if Nottingham Forest fans would have been in the Leppings Lane end would we be talking about 96 Forest fans now? I don't think so.

There were many unfortunate events that led to this sad outcome, and the saddest thing of all is that the 96 who were excited and truly there for Football perished.
 

The East Terrace

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The game should never have been held there and the ground should not have been allowed to open. No safety certificate is down the owners of SWFC at the time and Sheffield Council. The fact FA either didn't bother to check or just didn't care is another major contributor. Similar scenes had happened in that end in previous semi finals, nothing to do with ticketless fans on those days either, just lucky nobody was killed earlier. SYP should have know about the problems at that end but the ground not being up to scratch meant SYP were in an already difficult situation. The cover up, media assisted is a national disgrace, how any self respecting person can buy The Sun is beyond me, revolting rag run at the time by a grotty little man in Kelvin Mckenzie. So many different organisations have to take different degrees of blame but for me the fact that Sheffield Council allowed Hillsborough to be used for any game without a safety certificate is the start of the problem.
Some people will just never let the ticketless fans arguement go, its been proven to not be a contributing factor, let it go already.
 

Pagnell

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That leads me on to my next point, it doesn't sit right with me at all that Liverpool fans are totally blameless and infact is just as disgusting as what it'd have been if SYP didn't get any of the blame. It's simply really if the Liverpool fans had queued in an orderly fashion, this simply wouldn't have happened, those ticketless and worried about being late caused the pandemonium and then from then on in obviously SYP's actions are to blame. If you carry on with a blinkered (now official) view that Liverpool fans can't be blamed whatsoever, just ask yourself this, (knowing of Liverpool fans at the time) if Nottingham Forest fans would have been in the Leppings Lane end would we be talking about 96 Forest fans now? I don't think so.

Christ, that is a painful, ignorant read. And as for your comparison with the Forest fans, had you actually bothered to read up on the facts you'd know that, out of the 83 operational turnstiles on the day, Liverpool fans were designated only 23 of them which caused the bottle neck to occur. Again, down to bad organisation on the day.

Seriously, on emotive subjects like this, either read up on the facts or don't comment.
 
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