Hillsborough victims unlawfully killed

[Stocky]

How many pints would you have to have to shag that Margaret Aspinal?

 

[johnnytodd]

 

[Stocky]

You'd be all over her like a rash, Toddy you dirty scouse sod.

Anyway, fair play to the families for persistence and of course r.i.p to the 96 fans who lost their lives that day.

 

[johnnytodd]

You'd be all over her like a rash, Toddy you dirty scouse sod.

Anyway, fair play to the families for persistence and of course r.i.p to the 96 fans who lost their lives that day.

The pic was to show how sorry you should be for posting that remark.

 

[slaphead]

I’m a long time former member of TFF who occasionally reads this forum. I am neither a Liverpool supporter nor a Scouser. I viewed this thread today hoping to be moved by a sense of solidarity. Perhaps naively, I assumed all football supporters would be united by the verdict yesterday. Especially, the astonishing relief of question 6 in righting the wrongs of the initial inquest, and the unanimous assertions of question 7 recognising the apportioning of blame for Hillsborough on Liverpool supporters – tantamount to suggesting they unlawfully killed each other – has, always, tarnished all football supporters as a collective. Because we are a community, a community demonised throughout the 1980s, from the very top, as part of a wider campaign of denigration of the working class. Hillsborough and the response to it was always a manifestation of this. To my mind, Liverpool supporters and the Hillsborough families have never walked alone in the pursuit of justice in this matter.

Sadly, I feel compelled to register to dispel some of the sheer ignorance I have encountered in this thread. I implore anyone that if they wish to have an opinion on this matter (on anything, in fact) then basic due diligence ought to be undertaken. An understanding of historical context, chronology, myth, evidence – both available and for a long time concealed - and past proceedings is necessary. It is plain to me that one contributor to this thread has done so little of this it borders on negligence. It is a level of spectacular ignorance that ought not to be so brazenly spouted in public discussion. By all means, pedal such ignorance in your living room. But not publicly.

May I express further admiration to Pagnell for not engaging. It is something I simply could not resist, mate.

First, let’s think about historical context. You display at least a modicum of awareness in knowing that there was a disaster at Heysel. The aftermath of the disaster, of course, led to manslaughter convictions for 14 Liverpool fans (with one subsequently overturned), condemnation of UEFA for allowing the event to occur at a dilapidated old stadium not fit for purpose, the head of the Belgian FA for selling tickets in the Liverpool end to Juventus supporters, and two police chiefs for inadequate planning and responding to events. It is rightly a stain upon English football and Liverpool Football Club. But justice has long been served in respect of Heysel.

Yet you have unashamedly used Heysel as some sort of evidence that there was something intrinsically criminous about Liverpool supporters. You even, utterly disingenuously, argue that if Nottingham Forest supporters were allocated Leppings Lane on the day of the disaster then it would not have occurred.

This commits a most grievous error of historical ignorance. It assumes that Liverpool had a particularly bad reputation for football hooliganism and that Heysel was somehow unique. In fact, in the 70s and 80s, murders occurred at games between Bolton v Blackpool, Arsenal v West Ham, Birmingham v Leeds to name a few that spring to mind immediately. Both Leeds and Manchester United had been banned from Europe for their hooliganism and there was widespread violence and lengthy prison terms served in instances of rioting at games far too numerous to cite. There was also the very real connection between right-wing groups such as the National Front systematically infiltrating hooligan groups, spreading racism and fascism which enhanced the culture of violence. The upshot was that crowd segregation and the construction of cages were enforced and the Thatcher government eventually convened a special committee on the issue. One outcome was to ban the sale of alcohol. But this didn’t get to the nub of the matter – alcohol was not a contributing factor in Heysel, Birmingham v Leeds or, of course, the Bradford fire, all of which informed the committee’s rulings. It made a grave error, in assuming alcoholic consumption was a cause of both violence and tragedy at football matches. Empirically, it was connected to neither. And it is a myth that persisted in respect of Hillsborough.

Fresh from her persecution of the miners – look up Orgreave for another instance of cover-ups from our friends at South Yorkshire Police – an orchestrated campaign to target football supporters – was instituted by Thatcher. This is not historical interpretation. This is fact. Football supporters are described in official documents as animals and beasts. Such terminology is key; it is the language of dehumanisation. Once you have relegated a human being to animal level, any level of persecution can be committed. It is a mandate for murder.

And it was ordinary football fans that suffered for this. The Thatcher government wanted to impose ID cards that all football fans had to carry, in a severe restriction of civil liberties. Historically, we know what happens when a group of people are singled out and targeted. It never ends well.

The ending at Hillsborough was framed and informed by all of the above. Specifically, the response of the police, where a crush was considered a riot, where pens were not opened and fans were beaten back. Go and read the witness statements from officers on the ground – this is fact. The unequivocal result of the Independent Panel and now the Inquest in this matter makes it clear that lives were lost because of this error in response. Which in turn was informed by top-down attitudes to football fans. But hooliganism was widespread – events at Leppings Lane do not belong to Liverpool solely, and that’s because it could have been any other set of supporters. Including, obviously, Nottingham Forest.

And so let’s talk about that day and address some myth and chronology. First, this idea of ticketless and drunken fans turning up late and storming the Leppings Lane turnstiles. It has proven to be utterly wrong. Liverpool’s allocation was a total of 24,256 – the Leppings Lane terrace could hold 10,100 and it was accessed through 7 turnstiles. All 24k Liverpool supporters had to use 23 turnstiles located just off Leppings Lane, all in one area: a natural bottleneck. Nottingham Forest were allocated less tickets but, utterly wrongly and tragically, much more room to access their areas of the ground. Hillsborough had problems in 1980 where there was a crush at the Leppings Lane End in the FA Cup Semi-Final. The layout at the end of the ground was changed and the safety certificate never reviewed. Eventually, the invalid certificate lapsed. There were further crushes in the FA Cup semis in 1987 and 1988. A disaster at Hillsborough was inevitable.

On the day, there were roadworks on the M62 which connects Liverpool to Sheffield. This held up travelling supporters and undoubtedly, given the layout of Leppings Lane contributed to events. But it was avoidable – and the fault of the FA and the Police. Liverpool FC had asked the FA to consider allocating Liverpool fans the other side of the stadium. On advice from South Yorkshire Police, the FA rejected it.

Watch the CCTV footage. The bottleneck at the Leppings Lane entrances meant that substantial queues already formed at 2pm. An hour before kickoff!!! I’ve been to Premier League games this season turning up 20 minutes prior to kick off! In the confusion, some fans presented tickets at the wrong turnstiles and the arrival of supporters resulted in congestion. In the CCTV footage you quickly begin to see revelry turning to fear. By 2:40pm the queue outside became dangerous. It was a crush. It was not drunken fans demanding entrance. The crush was a mathematically inevitability based on numbers and space. Alcohol consumption does not fit into this equation. And, indeed, the ‘evidence’ collected by South Yorkshire Police after the match – photographs taken outside the ground and of bins in the vicinity – designed to show excessive alcohol consumption – showed no abnormal alcohol consumption. Looking at the photos, in fact, I see more cans of Coca-Cola than I do anything else.

Inside the ground, pens 3 & 4 immediately behind the goal were already packed. Pens 1 & 2 either side were relatively empty. Duckenfield received a request that kickoff be delayed. Duckenfield had been a controversial appointment weeks ahead of the match. He hadn’t controlled a football game of this scale, had not undertaken a review of Hillsborough prior to the match and was unsure of even the most rudimentary layout of the ground. At the Inquest he admitted he should not have been given the match and made fatal errors. He admitted responsibility. Duckenfield did order Gate C to be opened. Directly opposite the Gate C entrance was the tunnel leading to pens 3 & 4. But the tunnel gates towards the two main pens were not closed. Straight in front of them, the fans headed for the tunnel. Recognising the magnitude of his error, Duckenfield – when pressed by the secretary of the FA whilst still in the control room – said that ticketless, drunken Liverpool fans had stormed a turnstile. The storming of course could be refuted by CCTV and eyewitness accounts, and was that evening. The drunkenness and the ticketless allegations, however, were constructed into a narrative. One that good people, fellow football fans who should know better still insist on pedalling.

After yesterday, I choose to no longer solemnly remember the injustices around Hillsborough but celebrate the astonishing commitment of the human spirit, shown first that day by supporters, junior police officers and paramedics trying to help people survive and give dignity to the dead, and then by the Families who have until now been denied justice at every level by a corrupt system.

As first posts go, that is quite brilliant.

 

[Pagnell]

How many pints would you have to have to shag that Margaret Aspinal?

As 154th posts go, that isn't.

 

[Craig]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-36412814

 

[Pagnell]

I've been following that since yesterday. I was going to post about it this morning but decided the scummy pondlife doesn't deserve the attention he is clearly trying to seek. Facebook and Twitter have gone mental over it. His life won't be easy for the next few months.

 

[Stevencc]

I hadn't heard this - just googled it now though and seen the unblurred image of the slogan. Googled further and saw another picture of him with the message "Scousers - shouldn't you be at home F****** your kids".

This man does not like the people of Liverpool.

 

[Magic]

What is so fantastically wrong in your life in middle age to think that's a cool thing to do?

 

[Pagnell]

He's got a strange obsession of sorts, from what I read others saying before he shut his Facebook page, he's made numerous defamatory comments about Scousers, including another t-shirt listing what Stevencc said above. I'm not sure what his issue is, he's a Manchester United fan but he comes from Yeovil. It's not as if he has some misplaced local, nasty, regional rivalry to uphold. I also saw a screenshot of a FB comment he made saying something like he had a hangover after going out celebrating the death of 96 scousers. Plain fucked up. It would appear he's just a sad, nasty c*** who's chickens are now coming home to roost.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

is it spear?

 

[T.A]

He's been charged I think now.

 

[Pagnell]

Yep, I read that he's been charged yesterday. Bailed and due to appear at magistrates court in July.

 

[johnnytodd]

Should Liverpool players be charged for their t shirts?

just a thought and has no relevance to this whopper with the h'boro top.

 

[silkyman]

Yep, I read that he's been charged yesterday. Bailed and due to appear at magistrates court in July.

He's a lucky man. I'm surprised no one actually beat the shit out of him for it. Why would you do that?

 

[Pagnell]

Because he's an attention seeking, nasty piece of shit.

In some ways he's got what he wants here, and probably thinks it's quite cool he's been in the news, despite 99.9% of the population undoubtedly thinking he's lower than pondlife as a result.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

he's a c*** not sure being a c*** should be an actual crime though. saw a t-shirt on the tube the other day that just listed all the famous film spoilers like the kaizer soze, the sixth sense one etc. should that tee be illegal on the grounds of it being annoying as shit?

 

[Stevencc]

It will be if someone makes a Game of Thrones version.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

would have to update it every week

 

[mnb089mnb]

Bruce Willis is a ghost

 

[Craig]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-36746018

 

[Super_horns]

Should have though about the aftermath before wearing it...

Not exactly talking about a young immature man who might not be aware of the facts or what he was doing either..

 

[Pagnell]

Bollocks was it banter between friends. You could see from his other social media posts he has an irrational hated of all things Merseyside. Seems he's lost a lot though so I say this be the end of it.

 

[slaphead]

Fucking expensive shirt.

 

[Craig]

You'd think the company who printed it for him might have thought twice about producing a t-shirt like that.

 

[Super_horns]

Criminal charges now brought..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

 

[Blitzballer]

about time

 

[The Jovial Forester]

West Mids cover up artists still to come in a separate decision apparently

 

[Laker]

I'm surprised the FA haven't been charged as well frankly. It was obviously not a suitable venue.