If you lived in Scotland would you vote for the SNP?

[HertsWolf]

It's absolutely no surprise that the Scots are voting for the SNP. There is an obvious and widespread discontent with Labour and Conservatives that pretty much everyone bar Labour and Conservative party activists can see. The rise of the Greens, UKIP, and even the Russell Brand no-voters is not just a flash in the pan, but a real trend born out of increasing distrust. Many consider that the unions screwed us over for decades, and also that businesses have screwed us over for decades. For a long time there was no credible alternative to the Big Two. For Scotland, the SNP has proved itself in government as (in the opinions of many people living in Scotland) capable of responsibility.

If anything, the continuing animosity towards the SNP builds more support for them in Scotland. They are, in some respects, Scotland's UKIP....a party founded on national identity and pride, rather than the clusterfuck behaviour of the inhabitants of Mathew Parker St or Brewer's Green. Unlike UKIP, they have generally avoided the nutter element (because they grew more slowly, perhaps?), and unlike the Greens they have avoided ideological in-fighting. I'm surprised only that PC isn't sweeping Wales right now.

Perhaps bizarrely, the SNP look more Labour than Labour, and almost as Labour as most of the LibDems, so it surprises me that most Labour supporters are so aggressive towards them.

The crude oft-bleated argument that "why should Scottish MPs vote on English affairs" is laughable. English MPs have been doing that to Scotland for a fucking long time. We do it now to Wales. It's within the life-time of our parents that we ran half the planet without giving any of our colonial subjects a vote at all.

What comes around, goes around. If I was Scottish I might vote for a SNP candidate. It depends if that candidate was worthy of my vote. I have high expectations of my MP. I expect him or her to represent me to parliament and not constantly force on me some shlepped-up party manifesto dreamt up in some twee Notting Hill mews-house over a bottle of fucking Chianti by ideological Neanderthals like Michael Gove or David "Tweetfuckup" Axelrod.

 

[Alty]

It's absolutely no surprise that the Scots are voting for the SNP. There is an obvious and widespread discontent with Labour and Conservatives that pretty much everyone bar Labour and Conservative party activists can see. The rise of the Greens, UKIP, and even the Russell Brand no-voters is not just a flash in the pan, but a real trend born out of increasing distrust. Many consider that the unions screwed us over for decades, and also that businesses have screwed us over for decades. For a long time there was no credible alternative to the Big Two. For Scotland, the SNP has proved itself in government as (in the opinions of many people living in Scotland) capable of responsibility.

If anything, the continuing animosity towards the SNP builds more support for them in Scotland. They are, in some respects, Scotland's UKIP....a party founded on national identity and pride, rather than the clusterfuck behaviour of the inhabitants of Mathew Parker St or Brewer's Green. Unlike UKIP, they have generally avoided the nutter element (because they grew more slowly, perhaps?), and unlike the Greens they have avoided ideological in-fighting. I'm surprised only that PC isn't sweeping Wales right now.

Perhaps bizarrely, the SNP look more Labour than Labour, and almost as Labour as most of the LibDems, so it surprises me that most Labour supporters are so aggressive towards them.

The crude oft-bleated argument that "why should Scottish MPs vote on English affairs" is laughable. English MPs have been doing that to Scotland for a fucking long time. We do it now to Wales. It's within the life-time of our parents that we ran half the planet without giving any of our colonial subjects a vote at all.

What comes around, goes around. If I was Scottish I might vote for a SNP candidate. It depends if that candidate was worthy of my vote. I have high expectations of my MP. I expect him or her to represent me to parliament and not constantly force on me some shlepped-up party manifesto dreamt up in some twee Notting Hill mews-house over a bottle of fucking Chianti by ideological Neanderthals like Michael Gove or David "Tweetfuckup" Axelrod.

English MPs voting on matters that affect Scotland is different though. MPs from all parts of the UK voted on matters of relevance to other parts. But now we have a situation whereby a matter can be devolved to Scotland, yet Scottish MPs can make the difference between getting a law through or blocking it in England. It's a mess. The current constitutional settlement needs deep reform.

As for PC not doing as well in Wales. Many factors there. A fifth of people in Wales are English and therefore less likely to find PC attractive. Welsh nationalism has traditionally been based more on culture and particularly language, despite the fact the vast majority of Welsh people can't speak Welsh. And then there's the small matter of Wales not really looking like a viable independent country in the same way Scotland is.

 

[HertsWolf]

It's a mess. The current constitutional settlement needs deep reform.

Yes, agreed. My previous post may have come across as a bit of a rant. Not really intended as such, but in England we do have a habit of seeing everything from a world-centric position rather than think of things rationally IMHO.

Personally, I believe any country can become independent, regardless of size. They might struggle with some aspects but smaller countries tend to do well both socially and economically.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Do they? Most small breakaway countries veer violently to the right in a desperate attempt to attract investment.

 

[mnb089mnb]

As for PC not doing as well in Wales. Many factors there. A fifth of people in Wales are English and therefore less likely to find PC attractive. Welsh nationalism has traditionally been based more on culture and particularly language, despite the fact the vast majority of Welsh people can't speak Welsh. And then there's the small matter of Wales not really looking like a viable independent country in the same way Scotland is.

My dad lived in a PC/Tory marginal but couldn't bring himself to vote for PC as he's English so went with Labour instead.

This may be an odd thing to say but Wales is closer to England than Scotland is. A large proportion of the Welsh population live in the SE of the country and near the M4 corridor towards Bristol and then eventually London. Scotland feels further away from England.

The culture and language thing is interesting because you'll find plenty of Welsh people who are vehemently against he Welsh language.

 

[HertsWolf]

Do they? Most small breakaway countries veer violently to the right in a desperate attempt to attract investment.

Which small breakaway countries were you thinking of?
Were you possibly thinking of:

• Iceland (population half that of Cornwall)
• Latvia (population not much bigger than the Manchester urban area)
• Montenegro (population a bit bigger than Sheffield)
• Estonia (population a third that of Wales)
• Lichtenstein (population twice that of St Austell in Cornwall)
• Monaco (population would fill Villa Park and leave enough seats for their season-ticket holders)
• Luxembourg (population slightly greater than the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wiltshire).

Granted the last three haven't broken away from anywhere, but none of these countries are exactly jack-booted bastions of human rights abuses, run by moustachioed colonels in white jackets and gold braided caps with a penchant for stroking furry green-eyed cats. Unlike many English borough councils and the Association of Chief Police Officers.

In fact most are slightly left of centre, if anything.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Which small breakaway countries were you thinking of?
Were you possibly thinking of:

• Iceland (population half that of Cornwall)
• Latvia (population not much bigger than the Manchester urban area)
• Montenegro (population a bit bigger than Sheffield)
• Estonia (population a third that of Wales)
• Lichtenstein (population twice that of St Austell in Cornwall)
• Monaco (population would fill Villa Park and leave enough seats for their season-ticket holders)
• Luxembourg (population slightly greater than the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wiltshire).

Granted the last three haven't broken away from anywhere, but none of these countries are exactly jack-booted bastions of human rights abuses, run by moustachioed colonels in white jackets and gold braided caps with a penchant for stroking furry green-eyed cats. Unlike many English borough councils and the Association of Chief Police Officers.

In fact most are slightly left of centre, if anything.

I think you're confusing right wing politics with authoritarianism. And when I said break away countries I was thinking more along the lines of ones in the past century, though even the ones you've listed are largely very business friendly.

 

[HertsWolf]

I think you're confusing right wing politics with authoritarianism. And when I said break away countries I was thinking more along the lines of ones in the past century, though even the ones you've listed are largely very business friendly.

Thank you for educating me on the difference between right wing politics and authoritarianism. (Even though you used the generic term "veered violently to the right".

Now please answer the question: Which small breakaway countries were you thinking of?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Thank you for educating me on the difference between right wing politics and authoritarianism. (Even though you used the generic term "veered violently to the right".

Now please answer the question: Which small breakaway countries were you thinking of?

Albania, Slovakia, Macedonia, Moldova, Ukraine etc.

 

[HertsWolf]

Albania, Slovakia, Macedonia, Moldova, Ukraine etc.

Your lack of knowledge is verging on the cringeworthy. Best stop now, to be honest.

Albania isn't breakaway and has a left-of-centre government.
Slovakia - left of centre.
Macedonia - left of centre.
Moldova - socialist government.
Ukraine - (with a population of 44 million you also appear to be using the term 'small' in a manner with which many of us were hitherto unaccustomed) coalition but certainly not right of centre.

So far from me confusing right-wing politics from authoritarianism, it might not be a bad idea for you to research your statements before talking bollocks.

Your earlier comment that "Most small breakaway countries veer violently to the right in a desperate attempt to attract investment." is rather like a lot of UKIP nonsense: it's eminently plausible but utter bollocks.

When you can come up with a country that has done what you suggested, PM me or respond to this e-mail so I can be encouraged to come back and prove you wrong again. The only countries that start to fit your description are some of the very large CIS countries in Central Asia. However, it is utterly absurd to compare Scotland, Wales, Cornwall or even an independent Isle of Wight, for God's sake, (with their centuries of democracy, Western values and ethics, and established legal systems) with these despotic regimes, and you'd be an idiot to do so. I have listed more than 12 countries that disprove your ridiculous statement (including, laughably, the five you have presented).

Perhaps etc is a small breakaway country with aforementioned air force colonels goose-stepping past the village pond to encourage rogue hedge funds and sports retailers to set up shop?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yeah... it's probably best to look at their actual tax rates, rather than what their leading parties happen call themselves. Albania has 15% corporate tax, 23% individual. Moldova has 12% corporate tax, 18% individual. And Macedonia has a fucking 10% flat tax! Slovakia also has low individual tax, though corporate is more akin to ours admittedly. You could also add Ireland to the list to an extent. All of them have made themselves business friendly and welcoming to the rich, as nations in their positions kinda have to.

 

[Destruction]

Hope Cameron really screws Scotland over the next few years, their fucking fault he's got back in.

The twats may as well have gone independent.

 

[Pagnell]

Hope Cameron really screws Scotland over the next few years, their fucking fault he's got back in.

The twats may as well have gone independent.

 

[SALTIRE]

Hope Cameron really screws Scotland over the next few years, their fucking fault he's got back in.

The twats may as well have gone independent.

The 55%ers got what they wanted hell fucking mend them. Not the SNPs fault Labour were so dreadful though.

 

[Red]

Hope Cameron really screws Scotland over the next few years, their fucking fault he's got back in.

The twats may as well have gone independent.

This is a joke right?

 

[Destruction]

This is a joke right?

1. The SNP have destroyed labour in Scotland, there is now no viable alternative to the Tories when it comes to voting day in terms of seats as we have just seen.

2. Not only have they destroyed labour over the border, many were put off voting for them in England because they did not want an SNP and Labour coalition, so voted Tory instead.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Scotland probably needs a proper inclusive unionist party, not a load of Scottish Tory/Labour/LibDem parties.

 

[SALTIRE]

Tories won by scaremongering, shame so many clowns are so gullible.

 

[SALTIRE]

Scotland probably needs a proper inclusive unionist party, not a load of Scottish Tory/Labour/LibDem parties.

A party like that will not garner any support just now, and probably wouldn't do great long term either. Just like how a supposed Labour/SNP coalition got numpties riled, whenever unionism is stated up here its extremely polarising and plays into the SNP hands more.

 

[Alty]

Scotland probably needs a proper inclusive unionist party, not a load of Scottish Tory/Labour/LibDem parties.

Something Norman Tebbit was advocating recently. I'm always reluctant to side with him, but I'm starting to wonder whether he might be right.

It could be quite refreshing, really. Might allow for less whipping and more independent-minded MPs and MSPs. The desire to represent constituents and belief in the Union being the only prerequisites for selection, you'd get a wide range of opinion.

 

[Alty]

A party like that will not garner any support just now, and probably wouldn't do great long term either. Just like how a supposed Labour/SNP coalition got numpties riled, whenever unionism is stated up here its extremely polarising and plays into the SNP hands more.

Except last year there was a straightforward yes/no vote which boiled down to unionism vs nationalism. And unionism won.

 

[SALTIRE]

Except last year there was a straightforward yes/no vote which boiled down to unionism vs nationalism. And unionism won.

Not sure that would be the case now tbh.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

A party like that will not garner any support just now, and probably wouldn't do great long term either. Just like how a supposed Labour/SNP coalition got numpties riled, whenever unionism is stated up here its extremely polarising and plays into the SNP hands more.

Why would polarization play into the SNP's hands?

 

[Alty]

Not sure that would be the case now tbh.

Christ. It's like arguing with an EU technocrat. All referendum results are invalid until you get the answer you want.

 

[SALTIRE]

Christ. It's like arguing with an EU technocrat. All referendum results are invalid until you get the answer you want.

And we will when the time is right

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

When the time is right for us, and your oil is gone

 

[SALTIRE]

Why would polarization play into the SNP's hands?

The SNP always state a positive message, the others use negative politics and scaremongering to state what we'd supposedly miss out on if we broke off. I think people are getting increasingly fed up with the negative campaigning in this time and since Labour has seemingly abandoned its principles and is currently directionless and the Lib Dems look increasingly like a party on its deathbed, then a lot of past voters from those parties are switching to the SNP. Very clever of them also bringing in Sturgeon as leader after the referendum as some may have been put off voting for them under Salmond, and she has shown herself to have the peoples touch in this campaign.

 

[SALTIRE]

When the time is right for us, and your oil is gone

So one of the most innovative countries in the world could only prosper if we have oil and are part of the UK - yeah ok.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The SNP always state a positive message, the others use negative politics and scaremongering to state what we'd supposedly miss out on if we broke off. I think people are getting increasingly fed up with the negative campaigning in this time and since Labour has seemingly abandoned its principles and is currently directionless and the Lib Dems look increasingly like a party on its deathbed, then a lot of past voters from those parties are switching to the SNP. Very clever of them also bringing in Sturgeon as leader after the referendum as some may have been put off voting for them under Salmond, and she has shown herself to have the peoples touch in this campaign.

That doesn't really answer the question though. Even if we accept that one side is negative and one side is positive, the supposed positive side just lost in a referendum. And as you say, the landslide for the SNP is more about the state of Labour and the Lib Dems than it is about Scotland turning nationalist.

So one of the most innovative countries in the world could only prosper if we have oil and are part of the UK - yeah ok.

???

 

[Red]

Dessie, so you think the SNP should just disappear to make things easier for Labour? Maybe the people of Scotland wanted to vote for an anti-austerity party and I respect them for doing that.

As for complaining about the SNP and blaming them for the Tories getting in you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about how the election turned out when you constantly deride the utility of voting. Has it ever occurred to you that the people bleating on about voting changes nothing, the stay at homes, like yourselves who might have voted Labour could have prevented a Tory government?

Sorry mate, if you don't vote and don't make any contribution to the political process then don't bitch about the SNP. As far as I'm concerned you've forfeited your right to bitch about any other political issues too for that matter.