Lib Dem pains

[HertsWolf]

I've been having a look at Vince Cable's voting record ( I'm a sad bastard, don't need you people to tell me) Anyway it's fairly shocking. I've always known he's a bit dodgy but wow. I honestly think this is a huge mistake for the Lib Dems.

He was the only choice.

 

[HertsWolf]

I've been having a look at Vince Cable's voting record ( I'm a sad bastard, don't need you people to tell me) Anyway it's fairly shocking. I've always known he's a bit dodgy but wow. I honestly think this is a huge mistake for the Lib Dems.

Is it fair to focus on Vince Cable on his voting record? I can appreciate that you are a Labour supporter but Vince Cable is a Lib Dem and so will not support all the things that Labour supports. I may be wrong, but I **think** that with each of those votes on social/disabled benefits, all Lib Dem MPs voted the same way. So removing those who voted as such would leave no Lib Dem MPs to be the party leader.....

By definition, the price of being in any coalition is that you will occasionally (maybe even often) be voting things which you wouldn't normally. Many left the Lib Dems over the Coalition fiasco. Cable made many mistakes, but - whether anyone here loves or hates him - commands respect in the party across the social liberal v classical liberal divide (unlike Farron or Clegg before him).

I don't think many Lib Dems will see his election as a huge mistake, but I think many will see him as a capable pair of hands in a period of possibly great political turbulence, and that Jo Swinson will become leader in a relatively short period of time.

Interesting take on it from The Guardian

 

[Aber gas]

Is it fair to focus on Vince Cable on his voting record? I can appreciate that you are a Labour supporter but Vince Cable is a Lib Dem and so will not support all the things that Labour supports. I may be wrong, but I **think** that with each of those votes on social/disabled benefits, all Lib Dem MPs voted the same way. So removing those who voted as such would leave no Lib Dem MPs to be the party leader.....

By definition, the price of being in any coalition is that you will occasionally (maybe even often) be voting things which you wouldn't normally. Many left the Lib Dems over the Coalition fiasco. Cable made many mistakes, but - whether anyone here loves or hates him - commands respect in the party across the social liberal v classical liberal divide (unlike Farron or Clegg before him).

I don't think many Lib Dems will see his election as a huge mistake, but I think many will see him as a capable pair of hands in a period of possibly great political turbulence, and that Jo Swinson will become leader in a relatively short period of time.

He's fair game for me. He's made a point of targeting the yoof and appears to actively attack Labour and Corbyn. That's fine but I think it's important people know what sort of person/ politician they are listening to/ voting for. His politics are right wing Tory economically and authoritarian on social issues. When you look past the cuddly image there is a fairly unpleasant human being there.
I think scrutiny of his voting record is important in critiquing his politics especially as he attempts to sanitise his role in creating the mess of austerity.

 

[Abertawe]

Is it fair to focus on Vince Cable on his voting record? I can appreciate that you are a Labour supporter but Vince Cable is a Lib Dem and so will not support all the things that Labour supports. I may be wrong, but I **think** that with each of those votes on social/disabled benefits, all Lib Dem MPs voted the same way. So removing those who voted as such would leave no Lib Dem MPs to be the party leader.....

By definition, the price of being in any coalition is that you will occasionally (maybe even often) be voting things which you wouldn't normally. Many left the Lib Dems over the Coalition fiasco. Cable made many mistakes, but - whether anyone here loves or hates him - commands respect in the party across the social liberal v classical liberal divide (unlike Farron or Clegg before him).

I don't think many Lib Dems will see his election as a huge mistake, but I think many will see him as a capable pair of hands in a period of possibly great political turbulence, and that Jo Swinson will become leader in a relatively short period of time.

Interesting take on it from The Guardian

What the fuck is this.

 

[HertsWolf]

He's fair game for me. He's made a point of targeting the yoof and appears to actively attack Labour and Corbyn. That's fine but I think it's important people know what sort of person/ politician they are listening to/ voting for. His politics are right wing Tory economically and authoritarian on social issues. When you look past the cuddly image there is a fairly unpleasant human being there.
I think scrutiny of his voting record is important in critiquing his politics especially as he attempts to sanitise his role in creating the mess of austerity.

Yeh, I can understand he's fair game to you He's in a different political party.
I don't agree that he's right wing at all; he's not seen as such in the Lib Dems although he's not seen on the left either.
His voting record simply reflects what all Lib Dems were voting then. I agree, a lot of it really isn't a pretty sight though.

 

[mowgli]

Yeh, I can understand he's fair game to you He's in a different political party.
I don't agree that he's right wing at all; he's not seen as such in the Lib Dems although he's not seen on the left either.
His voting record simply reflects what all Lib Dems were voting then. I agree, a lot of it really isn't a pretty sight though.

The Lib Dems under Clegg sold their voters down the river by going into a coalition with Cameron and then voted with him to shit on the poor and disabled and they should be ashamed as they were part of the reason austerity was forced on the country and Cable was part of that so he has no credibility with the electorate and rightly so.

 

[HertsWolf]

The Lib Dems under Clegg sold their voters down the river by going into a coalition with Cameron and then voted with him to shit on the poor and disabled and they should be ashamed as they were part of the reason austerity was forced on the country and Cable was part of that so he has no credibility with the electorate and rightly so.

I think many (possibly most) Lib Dem members recognise that and do recognise that it almost destroyed them. Membership numbers collapsed - even before 2010 and have only just started to recover. And I don't think it was just "Lib Dems under Clegg" but it is seen as "all Lib Dems".

I'm not sure he has no credibility, but I do understand that many will say that and probably with good reason. Time will tell. As I said before, it would seem Cable has support in the Lib Dems - and there seems to be support across the divide between classical/economic and social liberals - but it's probably not strong or lasting support; it's probably a recognition that there's no viable alternative right now.

 

[Aber gas]

I think many (possibly most) Lib Dem members recognise that and do recognise that it almost destroyed them. Membership numbers collapsed - even before 2010 and have only just started to recover. And I don't think it was just "Lib Dems under Clegg" but it is seen as "all Lib Dems".

I'm not sure he has no credibility, but I do understand that many will say that and probably with good reason. Time will tell. As I said before, it would seem Cable has support in the Lib Dems - and there seems to be support across the divide between classical/economic and social loberals - but it's probably not strong or lasting support; it's probably a recognition that there's no viable alternative right now.

Fwiw I don't think all is lost for the Lib Dems. My advice to them would be to stop spending a disproportionate amount of their time and resources punching left. It creates the ( fair ) impression that they are still aligned too closely with the Tory party. Entering an informal detente with Labour could see them perhaps regain some of their traditional strength around the Celtic fringes, south west and south east. The leftish vote is too often split in these places with Tories winning by default. This would be difficult with Cable in charge but that would be my plan if I was involved with them.

 

[HertsWolf]

Fwiw I don't think all is lost for the Lib Dems. My advice to them would be to stop spending a disproportionate amount of their time and resources punching left. It creates the ( fair ) impression that they are still aligned too closely with the Tory party. Entering an informal detente with Labour could see them perhaps regain some of their traditional strength around the Celtic fringes, south west and south east. The leftish vote is too often split in these places with Tories winning by default. This would be difficult with Cable in charge but that would be my plan if I was involved with them.

I think all is lost for anyone in the Centre right now, mainly because different people see the Centre in different places now. With the Overton window so wide, what Labour voters see as the centre is probably very different from where Tory voters see it. It is clear there is a lot of soul-searching going on in both the Tory and Lib Dem camps.
Personally, I see an inevitable (but probably small) Labour victory in the next election and **after** that, I think the Lib Dems will come back (because there will be some people fed up after seeing what Labour and the Tories have done), but only if they create something tangibly different from what Labour and the Tories offer.

 

[Aber gas]

I was talking to an acquaintance who used to work for Paul Keetch and the Lib Dems. He's since left the party but was quite scathing about Cable. The interesting thing he told me was how disliked personally Cable is within the party. As Hertswolf has mentioned, there really must have been no one else.

 

[Aber gas]

Just going out, but saw this.

I think the point about the French unions is that they have had it pretty good for a long time. France has (had) some progressive labour laws compared to most of the rest of Europe. The right will argue that that has led to higher unemployment levels, but then the left will shoot back that this has probably also contributed to legally protecting a lot of French industry. Like car manufacturing, specialist steel, aerospace.
Macron is unlikely to become Maggie Thatcher wrt unions, and change is likely to be incremental. It may be worth seeing how it goes.

Dying on his arse by the sound of things, 10 point drop in record time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/23/emmanuel-macron-slumps-popularity-ratings/

 

[HertsWolf]

Dying on his arse by the sound of things, 10 point drop in record time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/23/emmanuel-macron-slumps-popularity-ratings/

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Dying on his arse with still almost 6 out of every 10 French people happy? The article is about a poll that shows that his satisfaction rating is still 54%, probably higher than any British leader in history
Trust the Torygraph to create a negative story out of a 54% satisfaction rating. And - shock! horror! merde! - the French PM's popularity has collapsed to 56%.

Really, Aber....didn't think you'd be using the Telegraph to prove points...

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I'd imagine that Cable's voting record between 97-10 looks rather different to his voting record between 10-15. During the latter period he was a member of the government, and indeed, the cabinet. He would obviously have been voting in accordance with government policy. Collective responsibility and all that. And I do think a bit of context is necessary here - in 2010 Labour failed to win the election because it couldn't convince the electorate that it was fiscally responsible. We'd recently had a recession, it happened on Labour's watch, the Tories were pledging to run a tight ship and successfully managed to convince a substantial portion of the electorate that their opponents had been irresponsible with the nation's finances. Rightly or wrongly (I'd certainly argue the latter; don't get me started on all those terrible household budget analogies) that was the perception. Now, I have no wish to defend the Lib Dems record in government (chalk me up as one of the many who felt enormously let down) and no wish to defend austerity politics (which has, I think, blighted lives) but I do feel it's likely that the party wouldn't have a) entered coalition with the Conservatives b) signed up to their economic programme, had circumstances been different. I think if politicians have a dodgy voting record it's absolutely right that people hold people to account. If Cable falls down on that score people have every right to criticise him. All I would say is that, as much as we rightly celebrate those who stick to their principles, politics is also often about messy compromise. I'd suggest that Labour supporters should be all too aware of this - it's not very long ago that their party was doing some pretty bad things in government and the Lib Dems were looking like the more progressive option to many voters.

 

[Aber gas]

Dying on his arse with still almost 6 out of every 10 French people happy? The article is about a poll that shows that his satisfaction rating is still 54%, probably higher than any British leader in history
Trust the Torygraph to create a negative story out of a 54% satisfaction rating. And - shock! horror! merde! - the French PM's popularity has collapsed to 56%.

Really, Aber....didn't think you'd be using the Telegraph to prove points...

It's in a month comrade.
Ha, yeah I probably shouldn't have used the Torygraph tbf.

 

[Aber gas]

I'd imagine that Cable's voting record between 97-10 looks rather different to his voting record between 10-15. During the latter period he was a member of the government, and indeed, the cabinet. He would obviously have been voting in accordance with government policy. Collective responsibility and all that. And I do think a bit of context is necessary here - in 2010 Labour failed to win the election because it couldn't convince the electorate that it was fiscally responsible. We'd recently had a recession, it happened on Labour's watch, the Tories were pledging to run a tight ship and successfully managed to convince a substantial portion of the electorate that their opponents had been irresponsible with the nation's finances. Rightly or wrongly (I'd certainly argue the latter; don't get me started on all those terrible household budget analogies) that was the perception. Now, I have no wish to defend the Lib Dems record in government (chalk me up as one of the many who felt enormously let down) and no wish to defend austerity politics (which has, I think, blighted lives) but I do feel it's likely that the party wouldn't have a) entered coalition with the Conservatives b) signed up to their economic programme, had circumstances been different. I think if politicians have a dodgy voting record it's absolutely right that people hold people to account. If Cable falls down on that score people have every right to criticise him. All I would say is that, as much as we rightly celebrate those who stick to their principles, politics is also often about messy compromise. I'd suggest that Labour supporters should be all too aware of this - it's not very long ago that their party was doing some pretty bad things in government and the Lib Dems were looking like the more progressive option to many voters.

Well I've had a look at his voting record pre- selling his party down the shitter and it's not good. The " just following orders" defence isn't going to work for dear old Vince I'm afraid.

 

[Aber gas]

Vince also has questions to answer about his time as chief economic advisor for Shell between '95-97.
Ken- Saro- Wiwa and the other ogoni protesters were murdered under his watch and he's stayed silent ( calling scrutiny of this time as " rough and tumble politics")
I don't mean to be picky but this kinda feels like summat that should be talked about.

 

[Aber gas]

Dying on his arse with still almost 6 out of every 10 French people happy? The article is about a poll that shows that his satisfaction rating is still 54%, probably higher than any British leader in history
Trust the Torygraph to create a negative story out of a 54% satisfaction rating. And - shock! horror! merde! - the French PM's popularity has collapsed to 56%.

Really, Aber....didn't think you'd be using the Telegraph to prove points...

Still collapsing mate.
Indy this time
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lande-approval-rating-worse-a7892366.html?amp

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Rather the Telegraph than the Independent / Huffington Post tbf.

Qwality journalism from the Indy (RIP it was once a good paper)

"At the same stage in Mr Hollande’s presidency the socialist was satisfying 46 per cent of the French public and lost the support of 54 per cent of them". So he had 100pc support??

That's not to say the article isn't correct, but we're literally left with only two decent weekday papers. It's so sad.

 

[Aber gas]

Rather the Telegraph than the Independent / Huffington Post tbf.

Qwality journalism from the Indy (RIP it was once a good paper)

"At the same stage in Mr Hollande’s presidency the socialist was satisfying 46 per cent of the French public and lost the support of 54 per cent of them". So he had 100pc support??

That's not to say the article isn't correct, but we're literally left with only two decent weekday papers. It's so sad.

Terrible Indy journalism aside, it doesn't look good for yer boy. Makes me wonder if Herts was right about centrism not being electorally viable at this time. He was supposed to be the great white hope of centrism but here he is continuously shitting himself.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Bring on Le Pen.

 

[Aber gas]

Bring on Le Pen.

No one wants that mate.

 

[Aber gas]

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/02/lib-d...it-photo-of-him-dressed-as-mouse-6897641/amp/

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Cheesus, that's unsqueakable behaviour

 

[Aber gas]

 

[Aber gas]

Lib Dem’s doing bits.
Good stuff
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/918604126040281088

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Lib Dems also up to 8% nationally... HA!

 

[Kopper]

The Lib Dems under Clegg sold their voters down the river by going into a coalition with Cameron and then voted with him to shit on the poor and disabled and they should be ashamed as they were part of the reason austerity was forced on the country and Cable was part of that so he has no credibility with the electorate and rightly so.

Austerity is about living within our means. It's easy for any political party (not in government) to make promises. It's harder to keep them once you're in power. As the Lib Dems found out.

Wouldn't you rather know the truth, however unpleasant. Than rely on a lie?

 

[Aber gas]

How come the debt has gone up then mate?

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Whatever the truth is, the answer is never Universal Credit.

 

[Aber gas]

Lib Dems doing their bit at last... bit of coalition de-tox?
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/926229638371856384
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/926235771849400320