US Police state

[pontoonlew]

While I denounce the media's selective reporting in search of the controversy which buys Rupert Murdoch and his clones their 4th and 5th vacation homes, this is utter shite — hypocritical, condescending, and incorrect. If you look at the percentage of people killed by police offers in the United States, it largely skews towards one demographic. I say this as a person—one geographically very close to the issue—who doesn't believe the Michael Brown incident was particularly wrong. Now there are loads of other less-profiled cases that are really shocking. The Travyon Martin verdict, Eric Garner, the children with toy guns, etc. — it's clear there is a judicial double standard. I'm not accusing all, or even the majority, of those in law enforcement, but there is a tragic systemic mistreatment of black men and women in America (and likely elsewhere).

Have you seen the e-mails from the Ferguson PD which have surfaced? Or the extreme disparity in traffic citations issued? I don't think there is a correlation between "feeling threatened" and pulling over young black men on suspicion. As someone who drives in this city and surrounding areas daily, it's not just young, black men who are speeding. So why the chronic prejudice?

You see white men shot in exactly the same circumstances, the media sit silent because it doesn't suit them to report it. In the Michael Brown case, there was a white guy in America shot in the similar circumstances just days apart. Do you remember his name? Did you see it reported in the same vein?

It goes on up and down America, the gun laws etc don't help any situation and makes it all the more shocking for people in the UK who aren't used to having such laws in place here. Especially RavenBish who doesn't appear to have ever left his bedroom. Who then just presume it's just black people getting killed by the police for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

There is a problem in America, I do not doubt that whatsoever. But people seem very quick to jump on the fact that these shootings must've been racist and there's no other way it could've gone down. That sort of media drive cost two policemen their lives in New York.

Think of how many people are killed by police on a daily basis, the harsh reality is that it's a lot more than the few reports the media pluck out to put into the limelight. Despite what RavenBish QC says, somebody somewhere is deciding these people who he deems as racist murderers, are innocent. I'm sick of seeing people claim it's just more racism when the verdict doesn't suit them.

 

[pontoonlew]

ha ha

The point is he's actually got relative experience of what the US police come under every day, unlike pretty much every other expert on this thread.

 

[RavenBish]

It is I who am the self-appointed expert apparently not Lew, the man capable of pulling back the curtain OF THE US MEDIA and seeing what is REALLY going on. The idea that the U.S media actually shines a big light on black people getting shot is *quite* the viewpoint - but hey, I'm sure you've got your research to back it up.

You see white men shot in exactly the same circumstances, the media sit silent because it doesn't suit them to report it.

But people seem very quick to jump on the fact that these shootings must've been racist and there's no other way it could've gone down. That sort of media drive cost two policemen their lives in New York.

I'm sick of seeing people claim it's just more racism when the verdict doesn't suit them.

 

[pontoonlew]

It is I who am the self-appointed expert apparently not Lew, the man capable of pulling back the curtain OF THE US MEDIA and seeing what is REALLY going on. The idea that the U.S media actually shines a big light on black people getting shot is *quite* the viewpoint - but hey, I'm sure you've got your research to back it up.

Based on facts from the past decade, white deaths at the hands of the US Police are around double the number of black. Now, when you factor in the population that is a mis-match, seems as the population is 63% white and around 12% black.

However when you factor in the fact that in 2004, in over 1 million convictions, 38% were black people, with 59% white. Making 1,178 out of 100,000 black people convicted of crime compared to 330 white. You would say that a black person is more likely to come into contact with the police in the first place.

Now why is that? Is that because all police are racist as you seem to indicate and they just chase black people? Or does it lay deeper than that? Does it lay in the fact that a higher proportion of black people are in poverty and thus making them more likely to committ crime, do you blame the police for that too? And why is it when double the amount of white people get killed, we very rarely have exposure to those cases? Because when you look at those facts, the proportion of criminals getting shot isn't out of proportion in terms of race, it's roughly equal.

I'd say it's a vicious circle, that doesn't start with the police but ends up on their doorstep at some point. Accusing the police of simply killing somebody because they are black is absolutely absurd and in the most part, completely unfounded.

 

[RavenBish]

It's not though is it, that's the whole point. Everything you've said is right - doesn't mean police don't get away with racially motivated crimes (we're not talking explicitly like 'lets go out and shoot one of those there black people Jeb'). Unless we're getting into the realms of 'NOT ALL...'.

 

[thespus]

Not to mention the disparity in minor offences which black teens/young adults are often arrested for while their white counterparts are issued "warnings". Of course the poverty factor plays a part, but the majority of these young men and women being targeted by police are not committing violent crimes. They are simply targeted for petty crimes. In St. Louis City and County, there are more white teenagers using recreational drugs and alcohol than there are black teens. The arrest rates do not reflect this - and that's the problem.

I notice you've failed to ignore the incriminating racist e-mails of the Ferguson PD department. Please read: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/4/8149699/ferguson-police-racist-jokes

It's willfully ignorant to believe there isn't racially-motivated policing. Not all of the black civilians killed by police are examples of this, but some certainly have been. Have you watched the Eric Garner video? What did he do to endanger the lives of police officers?

 

[pontoonlew]

It's not though is it, that's the whole point. Everything you've said is right - doesn't mean police don't get away with racially motivated crimes (we're not talking explicitly like 'lets go out and shoot one of those there black people Jeb'). Unless we're getting into the realms of 'NOT ALL...'.

Police probably do, but i'll put my neck out and say it's a tiny tiny minority. A number that certainly doesn't justify the size of the media coverage which seemingly crops up every time a young black person is killed. The fact there is a single copper on any street in the world that gets away with racial motivated crimes is absolutely disgusting, but like with almost every single crime, you'll never eradicate it.

Should it be ignored? Certainly not. Should it be spoken about in proportion to the rate of which it is actually happening? I'd say so. The media and members of the public often appear to want one of these crimes to be proven as racist and seem ready to dismiss the fact that aggression towards the police in the US is highly likely to see you getting shot. Not saying that's always right, and in the UK we have it right. But in the US where gun laws are so relaxed, I don't think i'd like to take that risk as a copper and in reality nobody on this thread would either.

 

[pontoonlew]

Not to mention the disparity in minor offences which black teens/young adults are often arrested for while their white counterparts are issued "warnings". Of course the poverty factor plays a part, but the majority of these young men and women being targeted by police are not committing violent crimes. They are simply targeted for petty crimes. In St. Louis City and County, there are more white teenagers using recreational drugs and alcohol than there are black teens. The arrest rates do not reflect this - and that's the problem.

I notice you've failed to ignore the incriminating racist e-mails of the Ferguson PD department. Please read: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/4/8149699/ferguson-police-racist-jokes

It's willfully ignorant to believe there isn't racially-motivated policing. Not all of the black civilians killed by police are examples of this, but some certainly have been. Have you watched the Eric Garner video? What did he do to endanger the lives of police officers?

The jokes are massively unprofessional, 100%. But there's a big difference between telling a joke and killing a black bloke in cold blood. I hear racist jokes on almost a daily basis at work, does that make the people who tell them likely to go out and shoot a black guy?

Yes, I did see the Eric Garner video and it's a joke nobody was prosecuted for it. However, show me which part of that video indicated his race had a single thing to do with it? There's absolutely no evidence in that video or since that it was anything other than grossly negligent

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Another unarmed black guy shot dead. This one was completely naked.

 

[Renegade]

Where's PontoonLew? This thread doesn't have enough idiot.

You had to ask.

 

[thespus]

Yes, I did see the Eric Garner video and it's a joke nobody was prosecuted for it. However, show me which part of that video indicated his race had a single thing to do with it? There's absolutely no evidence in that video or since that it was anything other than grossly negligent

No, the data which shows police killings (and arrest rates for trivial offenses) are vastly skewed towards black Americans already indicates this. Funny you haven't addressed this once — and invented some bollocks in post #22: "If you did the slightest bit of research you'd also see the same about white guys getting shot by the police."

The Eric Garner bit is to demonstrate that some cops are dreadful human beings in addition to the support I've offered for racial profiling by cops. Drastically higher arrest rates for cannabis and alcohol and a higher percentage of citations despite being a significant smaller part of the population—where is your evidence or support that there isn't a pattern of racial injustice by law enforcement? Any videos (or even text stories) of an old white man being strangled in the streets of New York after being accused of committing a petty crime?

 

[pontoonlew]

No, the data which shows police killings (and arrest rates for trivial offenses) are vastly skewed towards black Americans already indicates this. Funny you haven't addressed this once — and invented some bollocks in post #22: "If you did the slightest bit of research you'd also see the same about white guys getting shot by the police."

The Eric Garner bit is to demonstrate that some cops are dreadful human beings in addition to the support I've offered for racial profiling by cops. Drastically higher arrest rates for cannabis and alcohol and a higher percentage of citations despite being a significant smaller part of the population—where is your evidence or support that there isn't a pattern of racial injustice by law enforcement? Any videos (or even text stories) of an old white man being strangled in the streets of New York after being accused of committing a petty crime?

I have addressed it, I've given you stats a few pages up in the page.

Your views on the Eric Garner death are just that, 'views'. It was a disgraceful act, but you have NO proof whatsoever it was racially motivated. There are none white police officers involved in that video. Police killings being 'vastly skewed' do not prove racist killings whatsoever, convictions of racist killings prove it. Just because you believe the police to be 'racist' and indiscriminately killing black people, doesn't 'prove' anything. You can read stats whichever way you want, if a white cop has murdered a black bloke, do you really think the entire US judical system is entirely racist and will let him walk time after time? If you read my post, you'll see that the number of black people on average involved in crime is of a much larger proprotion per person than white. Making the stats on deaths of people actually pretty even. You ask for research, you get that stats in front of you but choose to ignore them. Christ, even RavenBish read them and posted something worthy of a debate.

Why black people are involved in more crime per person is a different argument, my opinion is it lays mainly in poverty. Something way above the polices jurisdiction.

 

[Womble98]

I have addressed it, I've given you stats a few pages up in the page.

Police killings being 'vastly skewed' do not prove racist killings whatsoever, convictions of racist killings prove it. Just because you believe the police to be 'racist' and indiscriminately killing black people, doesn't 'prove' anything. If you read my post, you'll see that the number of black people on average involved in crime is of a much larger proprotion per person than white. Making the stats on deaths of people actually pretty even. You ask for research, you get that stats in front of you but choose to ignore them. Christ, even RavenBish read them and posted something worthy of a debate.

Why black people are involved in more crime per person is a different argument, my opinion is it lays mainly in poverty. Something way above the polices jurisdiction.

*facepalm*

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities -Blacks and whites use drugs at the same rate but are more likely to be arrested.


On average, black men's prison sentences are 20% longer than white men's for comparable crimes: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142...

African Americans are far more likely to be stopped and searched (although the contraband hit rate is higher among white people) in California:http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/...

And in New York (where the data isn't quite as good but appears to be comparable to CA): http://www.nyclu.org/content/nypd-qua...

Those wrongfully convicted and later exonerated by DNA are disproportionately African American: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Conte...

Black kids are far more likely to be tried as adults and more likely to receive life sentences: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/...

Black former convicts get fewer employer callbacks than white former convicts: http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/...

 

[thespus]

I have addressed it, I've given you stats a few pages up in the page.

Police killings being 'vastly skewed' do not prove racist killings whatsoever, convictions of racist killings prove it. Just because you believe the police to be 'racist' and indiscriminately killing black people, doesn't 'prove' anything. If you read my post, you'll see that the number of black people on average involved in crime is of a much larger proprotion per person than white.

Well the justice system is sort of the whole problem then, isn't it?
I don't even think you know what you are arguing at this point.

I've also given you some very good reasons why black crime rate is higher: selective arrests on trivial offenses. Black youths aren't given the same "warnings" as white youths in suburban areas. It's very prevalent in St. Louis, and as documented in the post above, everywhere else in the country.

 

[pontoonlew]

*facepalm*

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities -Blacks and whites use drugs at the same rate but are more likely to be arrested.


On average, black men's prison sentences are 20% longer than white men's for comparable crimes: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142...

African Americans are far more likely to be stopped and searched (although the contraband hit rate is higher among white people) in California:http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/...

And in New York (where the data isn't quite as good but appears to be comparable to CA): http://www.nyclu.org/content/nypd-qua...

Those wrongfully convicted and later exonerated by DNA are disproportionately African American: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Conte...

Black kids are far more likely to be tried as adults and more likely to receive life sentences: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/...

Black former convicts get fewer employer callbacks than white former convicts: http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/...

A huge amount of those articles do not show a single variable, especially the 20% longer sentences article. It doesn't take into account early plea deals and previous convictions.

What is also not addressed in those stats is the fact that poorer areas and poorer people are more likely to be targeted by police. The sad fact is that in those particular areas black people make up a large proportion of people in those areas, again, is that the polices fault or does it lay much much deeper?

I won't argue that there isn't something in it, because there is. But the actual size of 'police racism' isn't on the scale most on here believe it to be. And as i've said before, the media have only served to fuel that view amongst the public.

 

[pontoonlew]

Well the justice system is sort of the whole problem then, isn't it?
I don't even think you know what you are arguing at this point.

I've also given you some very good reasons why black crime rate is higher: selective arrests on trivial offenses. Black youths aren't given the same "warnings" as white youths in suburban areas. It's very prevalent in St. Louis, and as documented in the post above, everywhere else in the country.

So the police and the whole justice system are all racist? And nobody in power, including the black president, is willing to do a thing about it? That's quite a claim you're making there.

And I've given you reasons, a higher proportion of black people in poverty thus more likely to be involved in crime being the main one. I can't say there isn't a problem in America but I don't believe much of it lays in the polices hands. They are simply on the front line of it all and i'm of the opinion that if a cop shoots anybody completely unlawfully, they're likely to be punished.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 8m8 minutes ago

Two officers reportedly shot in #Ferguson, Missouri, during protests after police chief agrees to quit http://bbc.in/1wYUth6

 

[pontoonlew]

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 8m8 minutes ago

Two officers reportedly shot in #Ferguson, Missouri, during protests after police chief agrees to quit http://bbc.in/1wYUth6

Again, two police officers shot thanks in part to an absolute media circus surrounding Ferguson for the past 6 months or so. Next up there will be protests in Ferguson when the police dare to prosecute the person/persons responsible.

 

[Lukey]

It's all one big fuck up over there

 

[thespus]

Again, two police officers shot thanks in part to an absolute media circus surrounding Ferguson for the past 6 months or so. Next up there will be protests in Ferguson when the police dare to prosecute the person/persons responsible.

There are protests because their police and municipality government have been documented by the DOJ as mistreating black residents. No one knows what individual even shot the police officers. There was a suppressor used, which indicates a pre-planned attack. Suggesting any sort of a majority of these protesters support these shootings is ignorant and exemplifies you're inability to understand why there is such a problem.

 

[pontoonlew]

There are protests because their police and municipality government have been documented by the DOJ as mistreating black residents. No one knows what individual even shot the police officers. There was a suppressor used, which indicates a pre-planned attack. Suggesting any sort of a majority of these protesters support these shootings is ignorant and exemplifies you're inability to understand why there is such a problem.

Where did I say the majority? I seem to remember in Ferguson when there were riots after the totally innocent teenager was killed by police, the police were then criticized for being too heavy handed with the people rioting. I doubt there will be too many tears shed in Ferguson over these shootings tonight.

I'm also staggered by ITV's report detailing the shooting of a homeless guy by police. Reporting how he was shot for resisting arrest, with not one mention of the fact said guy had a hold of a police officers gun, small details eh....

 

[sl1k]

Check these dudes out, they call themselves the "Huey P. Newton Gun Club" and they campaign against what they call "police terrorism".

 

[Womble98]

That one white girl looks slightly out of place chanting "Black Power".

 

[Womble98]

http://i.imgur.com/CDrugKm.gifv


That is assault, plain and simple. His suspension was removed and reimbursed with lost pay.


http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/200808/marty-carson-meth-lab-murder-tennessee


America may be a first world country but its police are as corrupt as any 2nd world one.

 

[Womble98]

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...guy-should-face-death-penalty-killing-officer


A man who shot police officers after they broke into his house in a no-knock raid without a warrant and found no drugs is facing the death penalty.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[RavenBish]

*grabs popcorn* - Oh LewLew, anything to say?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/u...der-in-black-mans-death.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=1

 

[Tilbury]

This is really chilling and if there was no video, nothing would come of it. Heart breaking.

Just seen South Carolina still has the death penalty. Hope they do the right thing.

 

[Red]

No doubt some people say the officer was justified. Don't agree he should be executed though.

 

[merseyboyred]

How many cases are there where there doesn't happen to be someone recording present to confirm/refute the story the officer gives?