US Police state

[pontoonlew]

*grabs popcorn* - Oh LewLew, anything to say?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/u...der-in-black-mans-death.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=1

I'd say that is as cut and dry murder as you're ever likely to see. Absolutely no arguments in defence of the officer from me. No threat to him and rightfully he's been charged with murder. This is unlike any other of the new stories we've previously spoken about and exactly why he's been charged with murder.

But I bet you're fucking gutted I feel that way!

 

[Red]

Actually we're relieved rather than gutted that you feel that way.

 

[pontoonlew]

Actually we're relieved rather than gutted that you feel that way.

As said, none of the previous cases discussed on here even come close to this one.

 

[thespus]

Eric Garner case was equally as disturbing for me. If anything, the sheer number of cops involved and the murder without a weapon make it seem more inhumane. Garner didn't try and run. He voiced his displeasure at the constant police harassment of blacks in America (which you've deemed doesn't exist as white male in England) and then repeated "I can't breathe" as he was suffocated by a couple of c*** with heightened "us against them" complexes.

 

[Tilbury]

No doubt some people say the officer was justified. Don't agree he should be executed though.

Nah me either really. He must be shitting himself at the moment though.

 

[Red]

Agreed spus.

 

[Jockney]

This is really chilling and if there was no video, nothing would come of it. Heart breaking.

Just seen South Carolina still has the death penalty. Hope they do the right thing.

I don't think second degree murder is covered by any federal or state death penalty legislation, nor should it be (or even 1st degree murder for that matter).

Edit: quick search reveals that South Carolina has a mandatory minimum of thirty years for 2nd degree murder, maximum life without parole.

Edit: double edit -- SC doesn't distinguish between 1st and 2nd degree murder and, according to one report I've seen, is eligible for the death penalty. But, two things:

1) there were no aggravating circumstances
2) no prosecutor in their right mind would seek the death penalty for a cop who murdered a civilian in his line of duty.

 

[Craig]

When he's convicted he'll have to spend his sentence in solitary I would imagine. Can't see a federal prison in the US being a particularly safe place for a police officer convicted of murdering an unarmed black man.

 

[Red]

Hope he doesn't get raped

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I'll wait and see but I don't think he'll get convicted.

If the Oscar Grant murder showed us anything, it's that cops can be filmed shooting people in the back and just say they thought their gun was a taser.

 

[thespus]

For those who believe there isn't an issue with systemic racism within police departments, here's an interview with the court clerk of the Ferguson Police Department who recently (along with two officers) lost her job after a series of racist e-mails were made public from the DOJ investigation. She compares losing her job to being raped. I am not lying.

For your skin's sake, please wear a protective mask to avoid the oil build-up created by repeated face-palming.

http://www.kmov.com/clip/11368767/video-mary-ann-twitty-full-interview

 

[mase]

 

[Jonny12]

During my Policing course I've learnt a lot about the failures of the Police in this country, it was drilled into our heads from the off that the Police have and will make mistakes and will never be perfect.

Seeing the state of the Police in the United States really puts it into perspective however, it could be so, so much worse over here.

 

[Tilbury]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...g-a-school-presentation/?tid=trending_strip_6

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

During my Policing course I've learnt a lot about the failures of the Police in this country, it was drilled into our heads from the off that the Police have and will make mistakes and will never be perfect.

Seeing the state of the Police in the United States really puts it into perspective however, it could be so, so much worse over here.

I think the only real difference is that more cops in the states have guns. We still see people dying in police custody, or shot on the streets, in really dubious circumstances. We still see cops get away with murder by refusing to co-operate with inquiries, or conferring to get their story straight, having witnesses dismissed as less reliable than the cops or having key evidence like CCTV simply go missing.

Sometimes cops make honest mistakes. Sometimes they're corrupt, or motivated by prejudice. And sometimes they make honest mistakes based on a set of assumptions that are prejudicial.

But there's no accountability when mistakes (or "mistakes") happen. Go down to the United Friends And Families annual vigil in November in Trafalgar Square and listen to a litany of stories of people trying to get some measure of justice or even just closure after the death of a loved one at the hands of the police. Each time, the state closes ranks to protect the person who's responsible for the death. It's very much the same here as the US.

 

[Jonny12]

I think the only real difference is that more cops in the states have guns. We still see people dying in police custody, or shot on the streets, in really dubious circumstances. We still see cops get away with murder by refusing to co-operate with inquiries, or conferring to get their story straight, having witnesses dismissed as less reliable than the cops or having key evidence like CCTV simply go missing.

Sometimes cops make honest mistakes. Sometimes they're corrupt, or motivated by prejudice. And sometimes they make honest mistakes based on a set of assumptions that are prejudicial.

But there's no accountability when mistakes (or "mistakes") happen. Go down to the United Friends And Families annual vigil in November in Trafalgar Square and listen to a litany of stories of people trying to get some measure of justice or even just closure after the death of a loved one at the hands of the police. Each time, the state closes ranks to protect the person who's responsible for the death. It's very much the same here as the US.

I wouldn't go that far at all, the responsibility for mistakes is not high enough, definitely. But the same? I think that is a case of throwing Police over here under the bus.

We get told a lot in the course that when officers make these mistakes/decisions, they not only let down themselves and their town, but Policing in the UK and even abroad as a whole. The public will judge the actions of the few on everyone else. I don't think they get enough credit for the changes and adaptations made to make up for a lack of guns. Saying basically that the only difference is the lack of guns feels very, very harsh to me. I mean it is literally rampant in the US with the killings they are committing (115 so far this year alone!!!, 5000+ since 9/11!!), and the amount they are getting away with. Not only is it harsh but it almost downplays the extent of the problem in the US.

There will always be corruption/protection of the police for their mistakes, but it ain't even on the same level as the US, not a chance.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I wouldn't go that far at all, the responsibility for mistakes is not high enough, definitely. But the same? I think that is a case of throwing Police over here under the bus.

We get told a lot in the course that when officers make these mistakes/decisions, they not only let down themselves and their town, but Policing in the UK and even abroad as a whole. The public will judge the actions of the few on everyone else. I don't think they get enough credit for the changes and adaptations made to make up for a lack of guns. Saying basically that the only difference is the lack of guns feels very, very harsh to me. I mean it is literally rampant in the US with the killings they are committing (115 so far this year alone!!!, 5000+ since 9/11!!), and the amount they are getting away with. Not only is it harsh but it almost downplays the extent of the problem in the US.

There will always be corruption/protection of the police for their mistakes, but it ain't even on the same level as the US, not a chance.

Whatever they say in training, there's a disconnect between that and the reality. There were 333 deaths in police custody between 1998 and 2010. The last time an officer was convicted for a death in custody was in 1969 (the two officers responsible for killing David Oluwale were sentenced to a few months in prison, each for assault).

What I'm trying to say is that institutional protection of the police is the same here as in the US. The number of deaths may be different, but the problem is identical and likely manifests itself in less destructive ways. An example of that is this guy who, despite not being under any threat, kicked a distressed mother in the head repeatedly, after which she needed plastic surgery. He wasn't convicted despite two cops testifying against him.

IDK, maybe it is worse in the US. It certainly seems pretty bad here though.

 

[Jonny12]

Whatever they say in training, there's a disconnect between that and the reality. There were 333 deaths in police custody between 1998 and 2010. The last time an officer was convicted for a death in custody was in 1969 (the two officers responsible for killing David Oluwale were sentenced to a few months in prison, each for assault).

What I'm trying to say is that institutional protection of the police is the same here as in the US. The number of deaths may be different, but the problem is identical and likely manifests itself in less destructive ways. An example of that is this guy who, despite not being under any threat, kicked a distressed mother in the head repeatedly, after which she needed plastic surgery. He wasn't convicted despite two cops testifying against him.

IDK, maybe it is worse in the US. It certainly seems pretty bad here though.

Do you have numbers on the numbers of US cops convicted for their own crimes/attacks? Because to say that it is WORSE, you need to prove that with statistics, then I'll hold my hand up. Also from 1998 deaths in Police Custody have also decreased in numbers, showing the improvement's and rights being attempted to be fixed from previous mistakes. There's been a big push (mainly thanks to the Stephen Lawrence case) to identify and improve the police and how they operate. Look and compare the numbers of deaths in custody from 1998 to 2014. So for me to use dated figures is a little disingenuous.

333 over 12 years here, 593 in the US in 2014 alone, an estimate of 400 of those were justifiable. That's 193 unjustifiable murders by the US Police in 2014, how many of those cops would you say got convicted?

But, I do admit it is bad here and personally there needs to be a push on the numbers of Police Officer's who are convicted of their crimes, 110%.

 

[Womble98]

Recent riots in Baltimore are pretty horrific.

Here is what happened:

1. Freddy Gray, runs from police without having been stopped. They chase him, arrest him, has a knife on him.
2. In between his journey from the place of arrest to the Police station he suffers a spinal injury, goes into a coma. How it happened is unclear.
3. Dies a few days later.
4. "Black Lives Matter" protests the next days. Turns into a riot. White protesters are attacked by black protesters.

Notice the knife in the guys hand. The guy with the hat is a sports fan who ran out to stop his mate getting attacked.

Why the fuck do they do this? So fucking stupid. Not a protest, this is a fucking riot.

 

[RavenBish]

Anger obviously. Not sure what you'd expect from a human when nothing else works, you can't brutalise someone and then dictate how they react (and that isn't condoning the dude stabbing a sports fan obviously). Protests didn't work, heck even getting a black man in the fucking Whitehouse didn't work for 'em. Police brutality is a massive branch on the tree of white supremacy. It's really hard to see this sort of shit going on in America and pretend they're some sort of progressive nation, it's fucking diabolical. That's part of the problem of being a British person viewing this, sure black people are treated differently by police over here but America is fucked up and brutal/fatal, it's an epidemic that's basically not confined to certain 'backward' cities/states either which is why I don't doubt it's fear as well as anger/frustration. If recent events have proved anything it's not as simple as the 'well if you're doing nothing wrong this won't happen'.

The man was beaten so badly that his spine was severed, and he was beaten - he was in custody, it's not 'unclear' at all. You can't sympathise with people getting murdered by police and not understand how that feeling manifests into riots.

 

[Womble98]

Anger obviously. Not sure what you'd expect from a human when nothing else works, you can't brutalise someone and then dictate how they react (and that isn't condoning the dude stabbing a sports fan obviously). Protests didn't work, heck even getting a black man in the fucking Whitehouse didn't work for 'em. Police brutality is a massive branch on the tree of white supremacy. It's really hard to see this sort of shit going on in America and pretend they're some sort of progressive nation, it's fucking diabolical. That's part of the problem of being a British person viewing this, sure black people are treated differently by police over here but America is fucked up and brutal/fatal, it's an epidemic that's basically not confined to certain 'backward' cities/states either which is why I don't doubt it's fear as well as anger/frustration. If recent events have proved anything it's not as simple as the 'well if you're doing nothing wrong this won't happen'.

The man was beaten so badly that his spine was severed, and he was beaten - he was in custody, it's not 'unclear' at all. You can't sympathise with people getting murdered by police and not understand how that feeling manifests into riots.

Don't justify it, it doesn't. Thugs running into stores and looting them has nothing to do with Freddie Gray. Attacking fellow protesters isn't a rational or appropriate response to what has happened. AFAIK, and from everything I read, the exact point where he was injured is not known, which is why I haven't said anything about that.

I could understand going out and attacking police, that would seem a somewhat logical step. But they attacked random people in the street, they attacked random buildings, they attacked other people random peoples cars, not just police cars.

I don't think there is ever an excuse for violent protests, unless it is a direct response to being attacked, which I don't think this was. It was opportunistic rioting.

 

[RavenBish]

Opportunistic rioting is rioting when your sports team loses/wins which it does but it doesn't make worldwide news - see the Kentucky fans riot a few weeks ago because their basketball team lost in the NCAA tournament. This isn't opportunistic rioting at all, that's a ludicrous statement.

'I don’t have to condone it to understand it'

It's really quite simple and you've basically outlined the issue, the media and general public are more outraged about these riots than the police killing people. The Baltimore police have killed 7 (black) people in the last year, in these riots 15 police officers have been injured (minor injuries in relative terms) and a few windows smashed. It's ridiculous. The 'thugs' are actually small in number just like a lot of things, you can't paint things with a broad brush - they don't want the entire police department to burn to the ground, it's just about getting justice in this sort of incident where it's obvious, and I'm not even making an assumption there because it's so obvious, that the 6 police officers involved either beat the shit out of him or knew about it. I'm not sure how many of these major incidents it's going to take before someone realises there's a problem in America, if you don't know that already. If it happens more than twice, it's not a coincidence.

 

[Womble98]

it's just about getting justice in this sort of incident where it's obvious

I don't think that is true, they haven't given justice a chance here. The autopsy hasn't been released, no one has yet been charged because of this. You are making out like the police has just gone around randomly shooting black people. Look at earlier points in this thread, I have stated repeatedly that the odds are stacked hugely in the favour of those who aren't black. Yet it is far too easy to blame police brutality for every single thing that has happened. One guy yesterday cut the firefighters hose, as they were putting out a burning building. The news correspondent was right there, and asked him why he did it, to which he replied "For justice". "Understanding" things like this and accepting them makes it seem like the appropriate behaviour. Yes, the police have huge problems, yes blacks are disadvantaged, but yes, rioting will not help them one god damn ounce.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think people are downplaying the riots somewhat. As of yesterday there were 200+ arrests, 144 cars set alight and at least 15 buildings burned down. I also think this is much more about police brutality in general than race, given that 43% of Baltimore cops are black.

 

[Red]

Womble your post omits the fact that he was screaming in agony when in police custody. Maybe you weren't aware of that. I heard it on the radio and it seems he was in extreme pain. However, that doesn't justify what has happened afterwards.

 

[RavenBish]

I think people are downplaying the riots somewhat. As of yesterday there were 200+ arrests, 144 cars set alight and at least 15 buildings burned down. I also think this is much more about police brutality in general than race, given that 43% of Baltimore cops are black.

Baltimore in general is fucked up, the graduation rates in schools for males are much lower than pretty much every other city, unemployment etc...it's a place of economic devastation. The place is also notoriously bad in terms of police, it's got a really long ugly history of it and largely police facing very few repercussions - http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/police-settlements/

Of course it's bad to wreck shit and cause trouble but I can't see how you're human if you can't understand why someone would be driven to anger and then that anger manifests into breaking stuff, it's like nature, it's wrong but it's a natural reaction that you see in some form all the time. They can't fight the police, they've called the National Guard in and have a militarised police force, as a civilian there's absolutely nothing you can do - so merely saying 'aim it at the police' is bullshit when you know it's the same police force that shoots people if they even look like a remotely small threat.

It's just basic fucking empathy Womble mate. In the same way if a bloke's daughter gets attacked and her Dad goes out and batters whoever did it, it's not right, they should be punished for it by the justice system etc... but you can at the very least understand how the actions were driven by emotion.

 

[pontoonlew]

RavenBish you are the single biggest hypocrite on this board.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The reason I hesitate to accept this as a legitimate expression of rage is because I know that when I was a kid, had something like this happened where I live, then I and many others would have probably got our riot on too, whether it was just or not, just like many in the London riots. It's a different mentality when you're young and you don't give a fuck and you live in a poor area, and I doubt that where I grew up was anywhere near as rough as Baltimore.

 

[Womble98]

Baltimore in general is fucked up, the graduation rates in schools for males are much lower than pretty much every other city, unemployment etc...it's a place of economic devastation. The place is also notoriously bad in terms of police, it's got a really long ugly history of it and largely police facing very few repercussions - http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/police-settlements/

Of course it's bad to wreck shit and cause trouble but I can't see how you're human if you can't understand why someone would be driven to anger and then that anger manifests into breaking stuff, it's like nature, it's wrong but it's a natural reaction that you see in some form all the time. They can't fight the police, they've called the National Guard in and have a militarised police force, as a civilian there's absolutely nothing you can do - so merely saying 'aim it at the police' is bullshit when you know it's the same police force that shoots people if they even look like a remotely small threat.

It's just basic fucking empathy Womble mate. In the same way if a bloke's daughter gets attacked and her Dad goes out and batters whoever did it, it's not right, they should be punished for it by the justice system etc... but you can at the very least understand how the actions were driven by emotion.

No it fucking isn't. "Her dad goes out and batters whoever did it". Because the owner of the shops that were burnt down is the same one who is responsible for the mistreatment of black people.

This is the Pastor of a Baltimore church, who is looking at his brand new centre for the elderly being burnt down because some scummy thugs decided they want to destroy something. Yeh, fuck him, oppressing all the black people. Fuck him for treating black kids like shit. Yeh.

https://life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/rebuilding-baltimore-porsha-and-khai-lee

This is the family whose house was burnt down. Laporsha Lawson, single mother whose disabled son lost all his equipment such as his wheelchair. She was the "rapist" in this scenario, right, and the scum who burnt her house down were just defending their child?
Your video says, you can fix broken windows, but you can't bring back lives. But can you imagine if these people had died? It is so possible, disabled son unable to get outside the house. The violence cannot be condoned, accepted, or even "understood"

Spoiler: Yeh.

No

.


Stop trying to misrepresent my views. It is not at all the same as the family member who defends his daughter, or attacks the man who raped his daughter afterwards. It is as if Man 1 attacked someones daughter, and Man 2 and all his friends go and attack Man 3, a random man, because of it. There are social media posts being spread around which say "The Purge" at a certain location. They were handed out before the riots outside high schools. I have spoken to people from Baltimore, who are friends with these people. People went and fucked stuff up, destroyed peoples livelihoods, their homes, because they could. Not because of Freddie Gray. Not because of racism. It speaks volumes that it was gang members/ religious nutters like the Nation of Islam who were the ones who calmed it down.

 

[RavenBish]

Fucking hell, well done for missing my point in such spectacular fashion. It still stands, if you can't see why they're angry and why that anger manifests into rioting and violence then I really can't help you any further.